Pelicot rape trial: does France’s legal system need to change?

We talk to Cynthia Illouz, a journalist and academic who founded the French feminist organisation ‘The Women’s Voices’ and Eleonore Caroit, who is a member of the French National Assembly from President Macron’s Renaissance party.

Cathy Newman: Cynthia, Gisele Pelicot has become this kind of feminist icon. She says she’s an ordinary woman. Just reflect on the kind of courage she’s had to draw on to do what she’s done.

Cynthia Illouz: Yes, absolutely. She was an ordinary woman who has been raped by many men, and she has the courage to be on the public eye during those last four months. And what happened here, she’s becoming really a feminist icon worldwide. You mentioned it. And what does it mean? It means that now the shame is changing side, but also the narrative around a phenomenon such as rape culture, as it shares the victim blaming phenomenon. A lot of things are changing. Even here today, it was obviously very hard to see the end and the sentences that are less important than expected by the prosecutors.

Cathy Newman: Eleonore, Cynthia was just talking there about some of the light sentences for some of the other perpetrators. It seems, doesn’t it, that radical change is needed not just in French society, but in the legal system specifically?

Eleonore Caroit: Yes, indeed. This is a framework case that sheds light on on a topic that is a society topic and that is actually very universal. It’s not only in France. And I think, as Cynthia just mentioned, the fact that Gisele was so brave and had this dignity and decided, she didn’t have to, but she decided to make this a public case, actually is shedding light on the issues that we’re facing and the need that we need globally to address when we’re talking about these issues.

Cathy Newman: Cynthia, consent doesn’t exist as a concept in French law, does it? Which I was really surprised to read about. Do you think that should now change? Because opinion is slightly divided, isn’t it?

Cynthia Illouz: Yes, the opinion is divided. So do the lawyers, because there’s quite a risk to change the law. And so it’s an ongoing discussion. And I’m not so sure it will happen. But for sure, this trial is bringing the topic because you remember a few of those men tried to say they did not intend to rape even they committed the acts. So the lawyers asked for full acquittal. So we will see what happens in the following months about this topic.

Cathy Newman: Eleonore, do you think that consent should be introduced in law?

Eleonore Caroit: That’s an interesting question, right. Because we do have certain conditions that are needed for a rape to be qualified under our criminal code today. And consent is all over the place, although it’s not specifically mentioned in the criminal code. But as Cynthia just said, it is a matter of consent and the fact that it is not written and that you can have this defence of saying, she was completely unconscious, but I wasn’t aware I was raping her, as some as some of the men said – and this is a very shocking moment of the trial – really raises the question whether it is needed for these trials to be properly conducted. It is also something that will be under discussion for sure in the next weeks and months.

Cathy Newman: Let’s talk about the broader societal change that perhaps might happen now. Cynthia, you talked about this central call that Gisele made for shame to change sides, and yet many of the men convicted showed very little shame. There were very few apologies. What do you make of that and how men need to talk about changing their attitudes?

Cynthia Illouz: Yes, for the first time, what happened here with the Pelicot case is that all men in the society bring the topic in the forehand. So what happened is they’re really thinking about what does it mean to be a man in the society. And also, you know, for the first time, we have a case where there’s so much proof, more than 20,000 proof videos, pictures, messages. There was no doubt about what happened in this room in Mazan. So for the first time really, the part of the dialogue about fighting violence against women and this is really something that need to be done, not only by feminists, but also by men.

Cathy Newman: Eleonore, we saw so many men convicted from so many different professions. Does France have a bigger problem with toxic masculinity than other countries?

Eleonore Caroit: I don’t know if it’s something that is specific to France, and actually the fact that this is a trial that has been followed throughout the world and that is so important not only in France but almost everywhere, shows that it is a global problem. And I think it is important to stress, as you just said, that this is not something that was committed by, you know, just people from the lower classes or from immigrants, that sometimes the media could show, this is something that could happen anywhere.

And the other important point is that domestic violence and sexual violence within the intimacy is something that is seen all over the place and in all societies. And I think these two aspects, the fact that it was her own husband and also the fact that so many different backgrounds, so many different men participated in this mass rape, is something that really cannot let us indifferent and will definitely change the way we see these issues.