11 Oct 2010

How buy-to-let was bailed out, is back, and may be bad for Britain

The British housing dream was about owning your own property. Somewhere along the line that turned into owning other people’s property too.

And though many expected the credit crunch and the recession to put paid to buy-to-let, with many stories of city centre flat hell, it never happened across the country.

And now, the cult of the amateur landlord is back, and you’ll be able to see that in my film on tonight’s Channel 4 News.

Property values have held, rents are now rising, a piddling number of repossessions, the government is slashing red tape, mortgage volumes are surging (though from a low base), and the old names in buy-t0-let (BTL) lending, such as Paragon, are back in the game.

In fact BTLers were the undoubted unintended champion lucky winners from the emergency slashing of interest rates by the Bank of England. Whilst charging thousands of pounds in rent, their interest only mortgage deals – especially those on trackers – charge just hundreds of pounds.

But this is not just about low interest rates. The ability of banks to service this relatively new market was undoubtedly saved by the bailout of Britain’s banks. Buy-to-let only formally started in 1996. Yet, remarkably, Channel 4 News has established that 56 per cent of buy to let mortgages ever lent in Britain now sit on the books of bailed-out banks.

Roughly half of the outstanding buy-to-let mortgage stock is currently being nursed by the State in some form. Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock’s joint £30bn BTL mortgage book is being slowly run off, in direct government hands from an office in London. And then astonishingly, in figures that the mortgage industry does not want you to see, that have been passed to me, about 65 per cent of buy-to-let lending in the year after the banking bust, was coming from bailed-out lenders.

Buy-to-let is a quasi-nationalised industry.

None of this would matter, if buy-to-let was unequivocally good for everybody. But it is not. It is clearly redistributive, a means of concentrating wealth where it already lies, and has questionable impacts on social mobility.

The old government’s key housing affordability tsar told me that BTLers had been directly outcompeting first time buyers for the same housing stock. It is common knowledge at the top of the mortgage industry that between 2005 and 2008, buy-to-let replaced first time buyers as the “marginal buyer” in the housing market. In other words, BTL pushed up house prices ever more, at a time when they appeared to be falling. Good for some, not for all.

I saw for myself how, even now, estate agents would market £100,000 houses in greater Manchester to well-heeled investors in Kensington on the basis of rental yield. Buy-to-let means that multiples of rental yield replace multiples of salary as the pricing mechanism for our homes.

So BTL has a dark side. It has undoubtedly pushed house prices up, and reduced the stock of owner occupier housing. That said, for those suffering from non-existent returns on savings, it is easy to see why they are attracted to the returns from landlordism.

Now that the government owns the majority of this industry, the fact that it creates winners among the rich and wealthy, and losers amongst the poor and young, is a matter of profound public concern. Indeed in Lord McFall‘s  much complimented Treasury Select Committee investigation into the financial crisis, one of the ignored recommendations was for the government to come up with a strategy for what to do with “its” buy-to-let book.

It could perfectly reasonably be pointed out that this is part of a healthier long term trend away from Britain’s property obsession towards more renting. Instead of the historic UK aspiration of 80 or 85 per cent of households being owner occupiers, we are heading towards 60 or 65 per cent, closer to the EU average.

But there are winners and losers from that process, and I see no public debate, despite the public stake.

98 reader comments

  1. Paul Begley says:

    Well said Faisal. Take it a few steps further – combine exclusion from owner-occupation with wages that have to be topped up with in-work benefits, and ask yourself if anyone under thirty will be able to build a life by working.

  2. Tom Wright says:

    Congratulations to Channel4 for picking on this issue.
    Not only does the government own the market, it also subsidises it through housing benefit: how many buy-to-let tenants have their rent paid by the state?

    1. Paul Begley says:

      Or to rephrase, has Housing Benefit help to produce an overvalued property market, by providing a government-guaranteed income for BTL landlords?

    2. wayne says:

      they built social housing only for idiots to spoil it for other people.i provide letsin nice areas for nice people.

  3. Wayne says:

    Lets not for get that Gov’t councils built social housing for these people on benefits! what did they do ? made these estates look like a shithole’s .So for the majority good people i build property in nice areas for nice people to live.

  4. wayne says:

    I was skint like you there’s an old adage if u cant beat them then join them

  5. Mark Burkes says:

    What a terrible report. You completely miss the critical issues and jump on a band wagon without even seeming to understand the rudimentary mechanism that sets house prices and rent levels.

    Your guest, grant shapps, the housing minister, made the real points. Cheap money caused the boom, housing benefit drives a very large part of the market and stability in house prices is necessary.

    House prices are at ridiculously high levels when set against income. That is a result of irresponsible bank lending (as housing booms always have been) encouraged by Gordon brown over the last 13 years.

    When the buy to letters are all being repossessed in two years time perhaps channel 4 will realise they have no grasp whatsoever of what drives this market and why.

    1. Thomas says:

      Cheap money caused the boom, yes ; but can the greed of BTL investors be totally omitted from the equation ? A lot of people are jumping on the propetrty bandwagon for 2 reasons : 1) Buy to let, and get a rent ; 2) See the value of their property “magically” increase year after year…I.e. people have it in their heads that if they buy a property for 100 in year 1, they must sell it for 150 in year 5. No matter if young buyers have to get in debt for 25, 30, 35, 40 years, then.

    2. Will Griffith says:

      Mark – I think you miss the point.

      In the UK the largest growth area of mortgage lending for residential properties was Buy-to-Let – that is where the cheap money went!

      According to FSA data, between 2001 and 2007, BTL lending rose from 10% to 27% of UK mortgage lending. In contrast, lending for plain vanila owner occupation house purchase loans shrank from 49% to 35% (the remained was equity release, which has little impact on prices).

      Buy-to-Let was the mechanism by which cheap money was transmitted into the UK market, causing prices to rise. It has been the driver of prices in the bubble period and the main cause of financial volatility. Yet mainstream debate doesn’t touch upon it – mainly because it assumes that we will replicate the US experience. You need to do some decent research.

      For those interested we’ve written a paper on this, setting out the main finance trends around BTL, on our website, PricedOut.org.uk

  6. Will Griffith says:

    Yes, thanks to Channel 4 for picking this up. PricedOut (a campaign for First Time Buyers) has been raising concerns about BTL for a while now, it’s good to see people taking it seriously.

    Buy-to-Let has radically changed the nature of the property market: changing the way that property is priced away from the more staid calculations of proportion of incomes, to a much more finely geared calculation of rental yields vs financing cost.

    For many First Time Buyers who have watched this process – and the soaring house prices it brought – it has been an extremely disheartening experience. Particularly so as it is one that sucessive governments and housing experts have failed to address.

    For many in government, Buy-to-Let is seen as a way to inject flexibility in the market, without understanding the impact it has on prices and the very negative social and distributional consequences.

    Buy-to-Let financing has also meant much more volatile, short term and frankly speculative investment. In the wake of the BOE reviewing mortage market stability, BTL lending is a prime suspect for a much tougher regulatory approach!

  7. Ebon Orca says:

    There are a group of people who have made so much money out of the property boom that they are now immune to anything the economy throws at them. During the boom here in northern Ireland I was speaking to someone who had made a lot of money and was continuing to buy even more property whenI asked the obvious question, since even back then people were saying it was unsustainable (something that seems to be lost to selective amnesia) which was “aren’t you worried about house prices crashing?” They said “No, just makes the houses cheaper to buy.” Their version of buy one get one free.

  8. Carmen D'Cruz says:

    Just seen the report on Channel 4 and you’ve really hit the nail on the head, Faisal. I’m 24, earn an average salary for someone my age in London and the only option for housing available to me is to rent shared accommodation or stay at home. Rent in London is so high that the option of saving up for a deposit for a mortgage is out of the question after rent, bills, and student loan repayments.

    There was a man interviewed in the report who casually said “I worked hard” in order to put himself in a position to BTL. I cannot help but wonder if he’d be able to do the same if he started out from the same position as the thousands of London-based earners under 30, who now cannot find a property for less than £100,000, let alone get in there with a chance of actually buying it.

    I look forward to Grant Schapps speech tomorrow, and only hope that he comes with a policy to help solve these problems.

    1. Thomas says:

      100% agree with Carmen here. How many owners could buy their homes at the price they’re asking for, now ? How many investors could invest today with prices which have doubled in 10 years ? Just to say “people should do like me”, whilst prices have increased so much is simply ridiculous. You can see in the documentary that most (if not all) owners are from an older generation : when prices were cheap, mortages were reasonable, and rents were affordable. No wonder they’ve been able to invest.

    2. Mike Clark says:

      I agree with both of you. I would argue that relatively speaking, today’s generation has it tougher than yesterdays and I hear it all the time from older people… “I’m glad I’m not young today… I’m glad I’m coming to the end”.

      Today’s global economy makes it that more competitive. I’m not saying you didn’t work hard but the young work hard too and they will have to work increasingly harder if they want a certain kind of lifestyle. I would argue that lifestyle came relatively easier 10, 20, 30 years ago.

      Not all of the young are in the pubs everynight, playing X-Boxes and eating Dominos.

      If all of these successful BTLs were starting out today would they fill their boots with properties? I’m sure they’d like to but the facts are they simply couldn’t.

      I don’t blame BTLs though – they’re just playing the game. It’s the rules (and morals) across society that are broken.

      To be fair to BTLs – why did they feel compelled to get into it in the first place? Why did they need to secure their pensions in properties?

  9. Lucy Bannister says:

    I was very pleased that this issue was brought up, as I sat watching in the bought-to-let house I rent. I spent 7 years moving through 12 different homes trying to find somewhere I could live without being ripped off, made ill through damp, insect infestations or inadequate facilities. I have had it relatively easy as I live in Yorkshire, I couldn’t bear to go through what my friends and family in London have to, just to find somewhere to live.

    We all work hard, very hard. Often more than 6 days a week so how can that landlord tell us to work harder? My husband and I and many of our friends and family work in the arts. With rising rents combined with proposed cuts, things look pretty scary for us. We work very hard, but we do not get paid well so owning a house is a dream that is so far removed we don’t even talk about it any more. We don’t get housing benefit – nearly all my friends rent and none of them are on benefits. We just have no other option.

    I want to know who is speaking up for us? We are in our mid-thirties but I feel like we are treated as insignificant children. Our voices are not being heard. It’s time the renting masses got together and shouted a lot…

  10. Young landlord says:

    One of the most biased and opinionated ‘news’ items I’ve ever seen on Channel 4 news. Maybe if you had done some proper research or interviewed any industry experts you might have got a more balanced view Faisal!!
    I’m a young (under 30) man who has managed to invest all my energy, savings and future pension in property. Please don’t stereotype all buy-to-let investors.

    1. Paul Begley says:

      “Young Landlord” does have a valid point – once personal and company pensions were trashed (how did that happen, and who gained?), there really weren’t any options that would give someone a decent income in retirement other than a small BTL portfolio. But that doesn’t change the fact that BTL is another mechanism that rewards those who own now at the expense of those who work (hoping one day they might own).

    2. CeeBee says:

      Property isn’t a pension machine…it’s a home and people want to live in them as such. Since leaving school, I have worked hard, paid my taxes and saved as much money as I can but I still have no hope of affording my own roof over my head (and hopefully one day my family’s head). Instead I have a ‘home’ that some landlord can take away from me with just two months notice.

  11. Donna Bibby says:

    thank you for covering this story! I have to say i have given up on the idea of owning my own home in the near future, as any i could afford have been snapped up by people who will rent them out! im not ashamed to say i have had some tears over the fact that owning my own home seems impossible! I have never been out of work or claimed any benefits. owning your own home is not ment to be an impossilbe dream.

  12. Stephen Jones says:

    Just caught your BTL report Faisal – about time this issue was aired. Housing Minister Shapps says we need a stable housing market (isn’t he a clever fellow), I hope that doesn’t mean he wants prices to stay where they are now (too high). Not that he has a choice (unsustainable at current levels, no matter how it is tampered with). If the current mob don’t fix this problem, there will be no-one left to vote for at the next election.

  13. Mike Clark says:

    Well said, but I can’t believe this hasn’t been brought up before now. It’s been on my radar for years.

    The young are being outpriced in their own country. Wages are down, unemployment is up and tuition fees will rise. It’s a shocking discrepancy between where we were 10 years ago.

    We are absolutely moving further towards a two tier society in Britain.

    I’m not saying everyone should go to university. It will be increasingly the privileged who can afford to send their kids to university and help with down payments.

    What makes me apathetic is the fact there will be kids who have the aptitude but they will not fulfil it simply because they have no other option. Why would you put yourself tens of thousands of pounds in debt to have to work increasingly long hours and self perpetuate the breakdown of the family unit.

    It’s sad, and it’s not government’s fault. It’s all of us and not just in Britain either. It’s Gordon Gekko’s mantra which is still booming in the midst of this recession.

    This recession obviously hasn’t hit hard enough if greed is still allowed to rule. Capitalism has proved itself but it needs to be controlled for the ones without the…

  14. Per McItty says:

    Great report and on the money as far as the social message goes. One inaccuracy in the footage, though, and that is that the tall building in the long shot shown before the segment in front of Northern Rock House, doesn’t belong to Northern Rock. It was built for them, but they were Nationalised before they could move in. Instead it’s now occupied by Eaga, the green support services business and a very different NE success story.

  15. John Barnes says:

    Excellent if overdue expose of this scam. However Faisal failed to mention that on top of public owned mortgages the BTL merchants also get subsidized in two other ways. Firstly through their ability to offset repairs and maintenence against rental income and secondly because those who have tenants on benefits are in fact getting their income from taxpayers.

  16. David Mansfield says:

    What you fail to reveal in your story is that much of the early movement in the buy-to-let market was fuelled by investors wanting to secure a decent pension in retirement. The previous Labour Government helped to create conditions where traditional pension schemes in the private sector were continuously devalued. Savers decided, and still consider, the buy-to-let market the safest way to secure long term income with relatively low investment risk.

  17. Mark says:

    Good documentary and could deffo be taken further. Buy to let (BTL) prospered through a combo of high LTV mortgages to BTL (sometimes 100%) combined with the crunch aftermath of low interest rates. People who I know overstretched and who should have been forced out by declining property prices are quids in on mortages linked to base rates. If they survived and prospered after this ‘land grab’ off the back of govt bank bailouts (for the banks who lent too much) and the MPC policy (maintaining low interest rates) it seems like (possibly suspicious) govt intervention biasing the market and funding speculators vs dwellers. We are in danger of forcing first time buyers out of the market forever and widening the wealth gap.

    I’d be interested in an investigation as to how many members of govt (who bailed out the banks) and the MPC (advising BoE rates) are themselves invested in BTL ? Noone else is benefiting from low rates (deffo not first time buyers) so might be an interesting stat relating to policy?….

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      BTL mortgages are now 3 or 4% over base along with high arrangement fees plus 25% deposit req’d. The banks have lost their appetite for BTL & are keen to see less lent out on investment property.
      I think they’d rather throw our money at dodgy hedge funds, third world debt & company takeovers.
      So this TV article was utter nonsense.
      BTL isn’t back!
      Do your homework next time Faisal.
      You are a discredit to Ch4 news.

  18. Thomas says:

    Once the again, the excuse of “young people should work harder” is heard in the documentary.
    Once people realize that buying a property is conditioned by your year of birth, people will realize that the under 40 are a jilted generation indeed. Personally, i’d have loved to be able to buy a property 10 years before the housing bubble, sadly I was just finishing Uni…. Can people who brag about owning several properties bear that in mind before dissing others ?

  19. Cat says:

    Well done Faisal. Channel 4 News, and your economics coverage (which is a highlight of the programme) is now the only credible news left. Thanks for highlighting the immorality of the BTL landlords seemingly determined to extract as much wealth as possible out of their children for the sake of their next mid-life crisis sports car. Investment that involves pricing an entire generation out of an essential commodity is shameful. I think we ought to get our revenge by ‘investing’ in retirement homes – oh hang on property specifically for our ‘elders and betters’ is safely protected via affordable retirement villages that age restrict their residents. Shame we don’t have this for the young too! Bring on the house price crash.

  20. Anthony Martin says:

    Buy-To-Let is a predatory system played out by unscrupulous people. A free market capitalistic country may reward the wealthy few but, the long term fabric of society in the form of poverty and hate will manifest in civil unrest and internal terrorism.
    I know a few people who own a secret ‘portfolio’ of properties and, I can tell you right now, there is no end to their greed and want of power. They don’t give a monkeys for society. They dislike me because I expose these scum!
    Britain is back in the dark ages and people are now left with no choice but to commit justified crimes in order to survive.

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      A Martin, Yes we landlords(LL)are in a market place.If LL offers poor accommodation then gets rubbish tenants deservedly or no tenants so lose money with voids.Law of supply & demand.
      I’m glad my money’s in property which is one of life’s basic needs in a world full of numbers,talk,marketing,vanity,political waffle,image &other useless BS.
      Property is practical thing of real use. It has to be maintained &kept up to scratch. All my tenants rent because they don’t want to buy as they are only in City for 1 or 2 years. When they want to buy they only need2 save deposit.
      Please do tell me, is all your pension money invested in ethical companies ?
      Or is it perhaps in GM food companies like Monsanto who promote more herbicide use& made agent orange used in Vietnam. Or Nestle that flog powdered milk to 3rd world countries that don’t have sterile water so babies die from dehydration, or drug companies hiding side effects in drug trials so their products get licensed, or arms co’s making killing machines, or multi national corps running sweat shops so parents of spoilt brats in west can buy designer clothes cheap.
      Please do tell me. I’m waiting. Bet like most u don’t…

  21. Dave Jobson says:

    Q]What caused the last housing bubble & subsequent credit crunch ?
    A]100% mortgages.
    Property is now less easy to buy as 100% mortgages have gone. So buyers now need to save a deposit. Things have returned to how they used to be with a more stable market. That’s Good.
    However rather than save, couples seem to want to rack up £30k student loans studying subjects that are useless to employers. Spend £10k on a wedding. Run 2 cars. Holidays abroad, live on over priced take away food. Own the latest mobile phones a 42” TV & shop in Waitrose instead of Lidls.
    Then they complain they can’t buy a place so they blame BTL landlords !
    Why don’t they simply save a deposit as my wife & I did 32 years ago.
    We ran one old car & took cheap holidays in the UK.
    We saved for 18 months to buy our 1st house & moved in & furnished it with 2nd hand furniture & a 12 year old TV.
    The rental sector is vital for people in the stage of their life where they aren’t ready to settle down because of their career or studies. It only comprises 11% of the mortgage market. Also house prices are higher than the would be if there was less immigration & more building. Nothing to do with landlords…

    1. Peter Stewert says:

      What caused the huge crash in mortgage lending was sub-prime lending and the belief of stock traders that they could chop and repackage the same sub-prime derivatives forever.

      It’s great that you have your home, not having a place to a call your own is no fun for anyone, but 32 years ago you could buy property (actual multiple properties) for the price of a plasma 42″ TV. The UK economy (public and private) has completely altered, and while as a nation we have never had it so good, it has been centuries since the good was had by so few.

      The contempt for, and clueless-ness of, the young is all too clear in the UK, and if I’d sat back while successive governments and economic crashes dissolved the welfare state (without which the 70s/80s first-time buyer boom would never have happened) I’d go on the attack as well rather than admit my shame of selfish silence.

    2. Mike Clark says:

      You’re a bit biased in your opinion of young people.

      Do people like the ones you have described exist, of course, but there are also others who didn’t go to university to study Golf Course Management.

      I got a degree in a subject that is very relevant today. I worked for years prior to university to afford it. I thought I was doing the responsible thing – self improvement. In the mean time all my mates flourished making £50 – £100k on their homes in less than 3 years.

      The bottom line it’s not irresponsible students who are wrecking the youth’s chances in life, it is greed. Greed from bankers, estate agents and yes, even BTLs too.

      32 years ago there wasn’t university fees and house prices were perhaps more realistic. Things have NOT returned to how they used to be.

      You said you saved for 18 months for your down payment. Lets say you had a couple saving £1k a month between them. Do you think £18k is a resonable down payment today? It wouldn’t work where I live, so at 30+ should I move and start again with a whole new social circle?

      All this will perpetuate apathy. It is a more competitive society and FAR less rewarding one. It’ not BTLs’ fault – it’s…

    3. Dave Jobson says:

      P Stewart, We bought our 1st home, a very average 3 bed semi in 1978 exactly 32 years ago for £11800.
      We borrowed 3 times joint salary which was the max possible. That’s a little more than the cost of a Plasma TV.

      M Clark
      Landlords provide an essential service. They constitute only 11% of mortgage lending. Where do you think all the people such as students & others only in places short to medium term should live ?
      Hotels perhaps ?

      Property is now less affordable due to higher deposits needed which is good for stability & also due to rising population mainly due to immigration along with lack of house building.
      It’s now also very difficult to borrow money for BTL so the programme was utter nonsense.
      BTL is NOT back !
      As regards banks being over extended & under capitalised due to high mortgage LTV’s & multipliers until the crunch, then that’s banks fault not Landlord’s fault isn’t it.
      So please stop blaming LL’s !

  22. Colin Finch says:

    In a time of declining property availability and a profound lack of social housing is it not incumbent on the govt to do something to free up BTL’s for social use.?

  23. Keith Rust says:

    What you didnt state is how many of those BTL mortgaged properties were reposesed or in arrears. It is the mortgage companies who decided the deposit (quite rightly) was at 20 or 25% even for first time buyers. How many first time buyers can afford the deposit to afford their own home. Plus the past problem is lending to those who couldnt afford the payments, which caused the banking problems in the first place. Im sure the Government realise the only way for affordable property is to encourage BTL.

  24. Red Admiral says:

    The reality is that Buy to KLet was the only option for the working class toi suplmement their pensions after they had been raided. This is the reaon that I got involved. I have never invested – only saved but I took the risk and I will have a reasonable pension. My biggest problem is getting their and keeping my job.

    The reality is that if stabbility was inthe economy, we could all plan our lives knowing how much we can afford now and in the future. However,whilost our assets are thieved by the banks, the government and whoeveresle can get a foothold into being part of the ruling class, then unfortunatley it will get progressivley harder for the working (wo)man to get a comfortable share of the ever diminishing cake.

  25. Jonathan Davis says:

    Faisal – as tweeted last night you are 5 years too late. BTL is now DEAD. 80% down over 2 years. Mortgage famine. Housing benefit will hurt in SE and London. You want to help FTBers – 35% fall over 3 years that is happening will help. Not telling people that BTL is good to get into – which it isn’t. Your piece was biased to telling people how good it is. How wrong can you be? Don’t reply with the past. The past is gone. The future will be disastrous for BTL. Ask Fergus Wilson!

  26. Travis says:

    How can you talk about economics when we are still getting over the Gun Powder plot. Know what we mean 7/7.

  27. Balanced View says:

    What a dissappointingly unbalanced view of the UK housing market. Who exactly are you suggesting should provide the 2 million rented homes in this country that are provided by the private rented sector to those people wishing or needing to rent? Or do you wish these people to become homeless? You may have missed it, but we no longer have a supply of Council Houses. The UK Govt (which has no money) relies on the PRS and BTL landlords to fill this gap.

  28. Dave Jobson says:

    What biased nonsense regarding BTL landlords on Ch4 news.
    Trying to make out landlords to blame for all woes in the UK housing market.
    What caused the last housing bubble & subsequent credit crunch ?
    Answer = 100% mortgages & ludicrous salary multipliers of up to 4 or 5 times.
    Property is now less easy to buy because 100% mortgages & those high multipliers are gone.
    So buyers now need to save a deposit. So things have returned to how they used to be with a more stable market. Good I say.
    However rather than save, these days couples seem to want to rack up £30k student loans invariably studying subjects that are useless to employers. Spend £10k on a wedding. Run 2cars. Take foreign holidays, live on over priced take away food & pizzas. Own the latest mobile phones, a 42” TV & shop in Waitrose instead of Lidls.
    Then they complain they can’t buy a place so they & the media blame BTL landlords !
    Why don’t they simply save a deposit as my wife& I did 32 years ago.We ran one old car & took cheap holidays in the UK.
    Immigration & lack of building was ignored by programme. One other thing, BTL mortgages now need 25% instead of 15% deposit plus higher set up fees…

  29. Techno says:

    Dave Jobson says: “Why don’t they simply save a deposit as my wife& I did 32 years ago.”

    The income to price ratio was much more reasonable 32 years ago. It was officially 3.5 times your salary if I remember correctly. Now it is six times salary.

    If everything is OK, Dave, why have these banks collapsed and been bailed out by the taxpayer?

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Average 1 Bed flat for example in Southampton = £100,000.
      Average joint salary 30k.
      What’s the problem ?
      Same as it was 30 years ago. 3 times salary & need to save for a deposit. Except ‘save’ isn’t a word in most 20 something’s vocabulary, that’s the only problem.

    2. Thomas says:

      @ Dave Jobson :

      “Except ‘save’ isn’t a word in most 20 something’s vocabulary, that’s the only problem.” –> what a patronizing generalization this is. And you’d better check your figures, or at least look at some national average, beyond Southampton : house prices HAVE increased much faster (+200% or so in 10 years) than salaries (35% or so). How can you say that this calls for the same effort from first time buyers? Would you be able to buy the same flat today with prices x2?

    3. Dave Jobson says:

      Techno “Now it is six times salary.”
      No it’s not. I gave you an example in Southampton of typical 3x.
      Prices gravitate to what is affordable according to lending criteria. Now they lend lower salary multiples so prices have dropped.
      People should be rejoicing that property is cheaper now the bubble’s burst !
      But no instead they moan cos they can’t be bothered to get ahead of the game by saving a deposit.
      So oh look lets blame landlords !
      What bull5hit.

  30. Dave Jobson says:

    Average 1 Bed flat for example in Southampton = £100,000.
    Average joint salary 30k.
    What’s the problem ?

  31. Cat says:

    Average student debt…. £25k – average date it’s paid off – 30. There’s your problem. Oh and it’s only going to rise as the older generation continues to pull the ladder up after them. Nice. Good luck wiping your own arse when you are 90 – no young person can afford to do a job as noble and poorly paid as working in a care home. Well not in Dave Jobson’s world of high house prices = a good thing.

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      No one forced you to go to university instead of getting into the real world 3 years sooner than you did. That was your choice to give higher priority to a piece of paper by blowing £30k on something that is useless on it’s own to most emloyers, instead of saving a deposit for a roof over your head. So stop trying to blame the older generation.
      Average property is still 3x average joint salary as it was 30 years ago. Southampton is an average city.
      70 graduates after every job. Some you win some you lose & you lost. Hope you enyoyed all the over priced Dominos Pizzas & shopping in Waitrose when you were a poor student.
      I own a dozen properties, but I still shop in Lidls, unlike all those poor students who shop in Waitrose. Live now & pay later attitude they have. Spending money they don’t have then blaming BTL landlords for why they can’t afford a home Ha ha ha.

  32. Ferg says:

    Dave Jobson. I would never have guessed you were a buy to let landlord. It’s very easy to sit in your ivory tower stating how easy it is to get on the property ladder isn’t it? I presume that the equity built on your previous houses that you bought was used to finance your greed portfolio. Try saving enough to save for a 25% deposit on an overpriced asset (inflated by the likes of yourself and stupid lending criteria) whilst paying for a parasite’s mortgage. The usual hackneyed defence for greed; youngsters don’t save enough these days, they want ipods and pizzas. When I was your age I was down t’ mine on tuppence a day. Leave it out. What a shower your type are. We want to buy a property at a reasonable price with our wages so that we can bring up a family and have security. Isn’t that what you wanted and got? You got your HOME and you still wanted more and you were allowed to do so by a government that allowed buy to let greed. Ha ha ha indeed you ****

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Ref ‘Ivory tower’ it’s not – today I spent prepping flat that tenant left chip pan on& ruined after I’d made it immaculate in Jan. There many complications &risks being LL. U in ivory tower ifu think easy.
      Ref prices.I know of working class couples saved deposit & bought in last year & Souhampton fairly hi relative prices so I don’t tolerate bleaters who say they can’t afford to buy.
      Ref LL to blame for hi prices. BTL is very small proportion of market.
      Rental sector comprise DSS freeloaders, Immigrants, Students. So if no LL where they all supposed 2live then. In tents ?
      Prices would be lower if no EEC. It means no border control to 400m people so we most densely pop country in EEC. Thanku Edward Heath. Also lack of building.
      Half my tenants are E.European so I suggest u vote UKIP next time as u competing with them for a roof.
      Ref alternative investment. Typical Personal Pensions take half in charges&commission. Then pay just 3%pa on retirement& keep capital when u die.
      So why shouldn’t I invest in something better than that.
      Most PP funds in arms companies, drug companies with dodgy licences with undisclosed side effects. Oil companies that dump oil in…

  33. Cat says:

    Of course BTL has affected the market. Its all about supply and demand. The more people bidding up an asset, so the price rises. There are approximately 22 million properties in the UK – lets rule out the retirement developments that are kept affordable for the old (oh the irony!). Lets rule out the large family homes and penthouses that are ‘up the ladder’ – lets assume that probably a quarter of the homes in the market are ‘first time buyer’ type properties (although average FTBs today without help from Mum and Dad are 37 so to be fair they could do with more of a bedsit to raise their families in). Now given that there are a million BTL mortgages out there, and probably possibly double that again of dodgy landlords who bought on cheaper residential mortgages (all of my last 3 landlords, all shopped to the taxman and their banks when I left – hey if people didn’t evade tax we’d need fewer cuts) – so essentially between 20-40% of FTB type properties are in the greedy paws of the generation above. Of course that has affected price in a way that just didn’t happen when you first bought. You’ve priced out the young and made them a captive market to pay your mortgage not…

  34. Ferg says:

    Translation “I’m a greedy chancer who got on the ladder before it disappeared for the younger generation. To justify my greed I claim to help by effectively forcing people to pay off my mortgage. Where else would they live?”

    We could have been living in one of the smaller properties that you snapped up in your portfolio of greed. The properties you lever off potential FTB’s with built equity on your portfolio.

    Re: ‘DSS freeloaders, Immigrants, Students’ – That’s the contempt you have for people paying your mortgages. They’re your cash cows but you needn’t worry about offending them – they have no alternatives but to rent from parasites.

    Freeloaders!? I struggle to see a difference between yourself and a freeloader. You get people less fortunate than yourself to fund your lifestyle whilst you contribute little to society. I’d love to see what you refer to as ‘immaculate.’ Much of the property I have had to rent is of low quality. Most is done on the cheap to maximize the LL’s profit. I’m surprised that the chip pan managed to catch fire; most investment properties are so damp a chip pan wouldn’t have a chance.

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Chancer, true. Many investors put down 25%dep then saw BTL property they bought drop by that much. So they kiss goodbye to their money. Or have to wait 10 or 20 years to see any worthwhile capital gain. Meantime they hav to maintain & manage properties & tenants year in year out for very little net income after the BTL mortgage interest payments.
      UC takes mor guts than a £1 lottery ticket which is all u could stomach as an investment no doubt. U can’t even be bothered 2 save a deposit for a home of your own.
      Uhaven’t answered my question yet as2where students etc are supposed to live if there no properties to rent?
      If less property2rent then supply &demand would mean rents would soar. Whenu were student2get enough status so you’d not hav2get yor hands dirty, wouldu hav liked soaring rents ?
      Talking of dirt perhaps u’d like2 come clean my flat after the fire. On 2nd thoughts u2 superior 4that degree of yours eh ?
      A flat my son who’s a cabinet maker& I, spent 2 months on refurbing boxing in pipes, replacing the 1970 kitchen etc. Take a look at the pics here: http://s1189.photobucket.com/home/djobson1/recentuploads?view=slideshow

    2. Dave Jobson says:

      In a world of the pseudo intellectual twittering classes, thieving politicians, talk, unethical mutli national crops, fashion, bungling public sector management squandering billions in inefficiency, crooked bungling bankers, unwinnable wars, marketing BS & hype pandering to vanity & ego…. in comparison property is real.
      It’s a practical thing that needs managing. It’s a basic need in life just like food. I’m glad 2b in a real business providing something that run properly is100% ethical.
      U also completely ignore fact that every 4th person u hear in street has E.European accent. There must be 10million here. We’ll never be told how many. With law of supply&demand they are a major reason for lack of homes.
      As for contempt of DSS freeloaders, yes contempt for the work shy ones that deliberately opt for scrounging off DSS as a lifestyle at our expense. As 4 contempt for immigrants. I am not prejudiced unlike u with your anti landlord prejudice. I have no contempt for immigrants. Most work harder than Brits. I have only contempt for the politicians whose policies hav lead to mass immigration & consequent overcrowding &additional road congestion etc.

    3. Dave Jobson says:

      As for damp. Majority is condensation due to occupants drying clothes in flat, not opening windows etc. Living generates several litres a day of moisture. If not allowed to escape then condenses on walls. I had a property where the walls went black with mildew. The tenant wouldn’t believe it was down to him. When he moved out 3 years ago I had to redecorate. No mildew has grown back with new tenants. So mildew was tenant specific, not building specific.
      But of course u use it as a way to blame landlords.
      No one is has to rent my properties. They view & if they don’t like then no one forces then to rent them. They can shop around for another place to rent can’t they. So it’s competition. A market place.
      Ur prejudiced. Just because of some landlords r bad u then generalise & say they all are. Property prices have now dropped so y don’t u grasp the opportunity to buy at the lower price by saving a deposit instead of blaming everyone else as to why u can’t Or ru2 hard pressed paying off the student loan ? Again that was your choice no one else’s.

  35. Edward says:

    seriously good presentation. Well done Faisal

  36. Ferg says:

    Dave, Dave, Dave, where do I begin? Were it not for the selling off of large areas of social housing, the private rental sector would not have prospered so heavily. Buy to let is effectively subsidised by the government with large amounts of housing benefit going in to the pockets of private individuals as they have not built enough social housing. My main annoyance is landlords with large portfolios of properties.

    Can’t be bothered? It doesn’t come down to being bothered, it comes down to the fact that prices keep on increasing out of line with wages and the fact that I am forced to pay high rent for crap properties. I save a certain amount and the goalposts are moved again.

    I am saving for a deposit on a home along with a partner but as stated before house prices have risen extremely sharply over the last decade. I don’t earn enough money to save for the deposit as prices just go up out of line with wages.

    You mention where I lived as a student. Yes, it was privately rented and despite keeping the property in good order the landlord ran off with the deposit – not that I would conclude that large numbers of landlords are thieving opportunists.

  37. Ferg says:

    You claim that I have a superior attitude because I have an education. I went in to education to try to better myself. You appear to have an inferiority complex Dave. I cannot personally see what is wrong with education -(theoretically) you have more options in employment. Only a cretin or a martyr would choose to do a job that they didn’t like.

    You’re absolutely right Dave on one single thing – MY PREJUDICE AGAINST BUY TO GET LANDLORD GREED AND SPECULATION ON A HUMAN RIGHT – SHELTER. I am very prejudiced against people that speculate on the future prospects of a generation and price out a generation of first time buyers for their own selfish gain.

    You keep mentioning markets Dave. If it is purely down to market economics, how come lots of landlords receive rent via housing benefit from their tenants (welfare). How come a large amount of buy to let mortgages are held by banks/lenders that are now largely state owned? That seems like market intervention to me Dave? If it wasn’t, your buy to let mortgages would have gone to the wall. Greed is good Dave, greed is good. It’s market economics all the way when it’s going your way eh Dave?

  38. Ferg says:

    ‘It’s a basic need in life just like food’ – You hit the nail on the head there Dave. It is a basic need that speculators are inflating with the consent of government.

    ‘Crooked bungling bankers’ – The ones that let lending get out of control? The ones that gave absurd LTVs to property speculators like yourself? You owe your lifestyle to them Dave. You’re rolling around in the same trough as they are.

    You are never part of the problem though are you Dave? You are just trying to help everyone out with your ethical ‘investments.’ Providing your benevolent service with no thought of your own personal gain at the expense of others.

    Anti landlord prejudice?!?!? Ah poor ol’ Dave and his stigmatised greed. Poor ol’ bankers and their selfish actions and subsequent bailout (that no doubt you got all hot under the collar about without seeing any correlation). I feel sorry for the greedy ones Dave. The poor ol’ sods who try to make a living out of the labour of others. My heart truly bleeds for you Dave. Perhaps you could get your tenants to have a whip round for you?

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Or would you prefer if neither councils nor private individuals wanted to be social housing LL’s, so those people lived instead in cardboard boxes ?
      Whether the council or a private LL is named on the deeds as the owner is irrelevant.
      What needs to be done to stem the flow of money is to get the DSS layabouts back to work & stop people that have 6 kids they can’t provide for so the council give them a big house for free out of our taxes. I exclude those that are genuinely unable to work through disability.
      As regards older generation lifting ladder on housing for the young. 32 years ago when we brought our 1st home it was the same. Older people progressed up the housing ladder then. They move to bigger homes from small homes thus freeing them up for FTB’s. Except we didn’t have half of Poland living here did we. They have a far greater impact on house prices due to supply & demand.
      So your grievance is with the people that got us into the EEC. Suggest u vote UKIP in that case instead of banging on about LL’s.
      Some of the older generation were also landlords 32 years ago. Except they had semi commercial mortgages in those days instead of BTL’s. So what’s in a…

    2. Dave Jobson says:

      It’s still finance to buy rental property isn’t it.
      I see you haven’t answered my question – Where are students & other people only in a City for a year or two supposed to live if LL’s pulled out of the market ?
      Rents would soar wouldn’t they. Then you’d have moaned even more then as a student wouldn’t you. Your human rights entitlement to shelter as a student would have been invaded because no landlord was greedy enough buy a house & let it to you. So make your mind up.
      As regards high LTV’s on BTL’s.
      No not true as max BTL LTV = 85% now down to 75%.
      Max LTV on residential mortgages was 100% or even more along with 4 or 5 times salary multipliers. That’s what caused the last housing price bubble. Not LL’s.
      As regarding enterprise & supplying a product in a market place where no one is forced to take the product, which is exactly what being a LL is. You interpret that as greed. If you don’t like greed driven societies as you call them, then move to an ex Soviet block country where all the state housing is grey concrete blocks because consumers had no choice. It’s still finance to buy rental property isn’t it.

    3. Dave Jobson says:

      Lets remind us who they are you need to be arguing with – The pseudo intellectual twittering classes, thieving politicians, people who talk but never do anything of any practical use to anyone, unethical multi national corps, fashion mongers, bungling public sector management squandering billions in inefficiency, crooked under regulated bankers, marketing BS & hype pandering to vanity & ego. Corrupt self serving politicians like Blair & his defence contractor sponsors starting unwinnable pointless wars.

  39. Dave Jobson says:

    So didu look at the pics then ?
    I buy a tatty 1970’s flat. Turn it into what u c b4 the fire, then u call me a ‘parasite’ !
    Just how educated ru?
    U confirm my belief that education is nothing mor than passing exams. It has little2do with gaining a grasp on reality & values & certainly nothing to do with common sense or how to apply knowledge learned by rote & then regurgitated in an exam room. I see some of the degree educated people at work. They are useless.

    Social housing was sold to council tenants not landlords(LL’s)
    I don’t let to social housing tenants. House full of layabouts. No thanks. I only let my flats to employed or students usually post grads or 3rd year students tired of shared student HMO’s.
    Ref social housing. So that’s government policy isn’t it you have an issue with.
    So now more social housing tenants have private LL instead of council as LL. So what?
    That hasn’t increased the numbers of people needing social housing, so it hasn’t impacted on the amount of private sector housing needed & thus the cost of a home to you has it.

  40. Dave Jobson says:

    You calling me greedy investing in property instead of some stupid private pension fund where the money goes on commission, insurance offices, charges then the annuity pays 3% pa & they keep the capital when uretire.
    No I’m not greedy, I’m just not stupid that’s all.
    I could just as easily call you greedy for wanting to get educated so you can earn more over the next 40 years. Assuming you had the intelligence to assess whether it’s a degree subject that employers want before u enrolled for it. Perhaps the money spent on uni would have been better used as a deposit to put a roof over your head.
    I too have an education in Physics done as day release. I work 3 days a week for the NHS then the rest maintaining or refurbing properties. I’m a useful member of society. Now go find a useless person to argue with. I’m through with you.

  41. Ferg says:

    Yes, I have a problem with social housing being sold off and I have a problem with governments not building enough houses (government policies) and I have a problem with people like you that take advantage of the situation without it being checked.

    Get over the education thing Dave, it’s not a problem. I just learnt to despise greed and thoughtlessness by rote. I just regurgitate things I have heard and haven’t formed my own opinion on opportunistic get rich quick types. If I had studied psychology I would wager that you have quite a major inferiority complex. You seem to have to disparage anybody that can string a cohesive sentence together. I am sure you are a very bright individual Dave. I am sure you are a lovely, caring individual too. I can tell that by the service that you offer to us poor proles.

    I too am done with you and your less than credible attempts to cover your greedy backside. You are transparent. I will go and find someone ‘useless’ to converse with whilst you textspeak with your cretinous property baron spivs.’

    I am currently starting a campaign for you Dave – you do deserve the symapathy you ethical lil thing ya.

  42. Ferg says:

    Just because it is legal doesn’t give you the moral high ground Dave – If it is purely down to supply and demand, are you going to get in to drug dealing and pimping? It’s only supply and demand guv….

    I WORK 5 days a week, pay taxes, do not claim any benefit, pay off a student loan and still cannot get on the mythical ladder. I play by the rules but get shafted none the less. Don’t tell me to work harder. Are you planning to turn some of your properties in to workhouses too Dave? They would fit nicely with your ideology.

    You are part of the problem You are part of the bigger picture of greed in the UK. You can point your finger at various others that are guilty but it doesn’t take the spotlight of your nefarious activities. You are taking part in the greed-fest that has gripped the UK but you haven’t got the guts to admit it Dave. Get your snout out of the trough and give someone else a chance or just feed away but don’t try to deny it Dave as its just laughable.

  43. Ferg says:

    In case it has escaped your notice Dave, this page is about buy to let, so I don’t know why you keep rattling on about

    “The pseudo intellectual twittering classes, thieving politicians, people who talk but never do anything of any practical use to anyone, unethical multi national corps, fashion mongers, bungling public sector management squandering billions in inefficiency, crooked under regulated bankers, marketing BS & hype pandering to vanity & ego. Corrupt self serving politicians like Blair & his defence contractor sponsors starting unwinnable pointless wars”

    Buy to let might not be the sole reason for the ridiculous housing market but it certainly is a factor – a factor that you are part of Dave.

    IT ALL SMACKS OF ‘Don’t look at me guv, I just drove the get away car’

  44. Dave Jobson says:

    As for being shafted. U shafted yourself by spending the price of a deposit for a home on staying in class for 3 more years. What did that involve ?
    20 hours a week of lectures memorising useless non vocational verbiage. The rest down the pub, eating expensive takeaways & studying facebook LOL
    Why did you do so ?
    For philanthropic reasons or for yourself ?
    Answer for yourself in order to accelerate your rise to the top of the heap so as to earn more.
    So you perfectly fit your own definition of being greedy then don’t u.

  45. Ferg says:

    Yes Dave, I selfishly got myself in to debt to get myself an education and try to better myself. How selfish!! How would you study physics if people had not passed the knowledge down Dave?! Education is such a shameful thing eh!! You are like arguing with a 5 year old in terms of logic.

    You’re part of it Dave. Accept it and move on! Go collect some rent or something.


  46. Ferg says:

    You claim to know a lot about me Dave – or are you just making completely unfounded, irrational assumptions to go with your blinkered worldview?

    According to you:

    I laze around my beautifully well equipped furnished rented flat, eating pizza, listening to an Ipod. I receive statements about my student loan but I decide to shove them in the bin whilst laughing slobbishly. Scratching my n*ts I head off to the pub to spend my deposit on tonnes of booze.

    The rent demand is through but I set fire to it whilst laughing manically thus leading to me breathing a little too much and causing dampness in my otherwise perfect rented flat – causing the poor landlord huge problems with coming over to rectify the damp problem. Thus we can conclude that all tenants forced to rent are useless layabouts/benefit claimants/insert minority here.

    You twist reality to suit your own ends. According to you, everybody who is forced in to renting because of speculators is:

    A) lazy
    B) a student
    C) an immigrant

    Do you actually own a set of eyes Dave? Or do you just collect the rental yield by direct debit?

  47. Ferg says:

    Is it guilt that makes you unable to admit that you got on to the property casino at the right time, rode along on the house price rise, bought up properties using equity built on your initial property and used this to leverage out FTBs and expanding your portfolio? You lucked in Dave, you lucked in.

    Now you are in a position to screw over people that contribute to society through WORKING. It was serendipity in many respects Dave but you want to put it down to business acumen. You’re lying to me about your motives and you’re lying to yourself that you got to where you are through hard work and business savvy.

    You take lots Dave but you contribute little… and I think deep down, you know it hence the defensiveness of your comments

  48. Dave Jobson says:

    “and I have a problem with people like you that take advantage of the situation without it being checked” – Udidn’t read my post.I don’t let2DSS.

    “are you going to get in to drug dealing and pimping?” – Lacking any credible facts to support your notion that LL’s sent prices hi rather than mass immigration, lack of building & Hi LTV’s on residential mortgages so u resort2childish quips.

    “I can tell that by the service that you offer to us poor proles” – I think u r the 1 with complex. I’m working class.

    What’s nefarious about providing one of life’s basic needs to those that aren’t at the stage in their life where they wish2buy ?
    The hi standard as illustrated here achieved with hard work – http://s1189.photobucket.com/home/djobson1/recentuploads?view=slideshow

    I await your answer to the question – Where are students &others only in a City for a year or two supposed to live if LL’s pulled out of the market?

    Rents would soar wouldn’t they. Then you’d have moaned even more then as a student wouldn’t you. Your human rights entitlement to shelter as a student would have been invaded because no landlord was greedy enough buy a house & let it to…

  49. Dave Jobson says:

    Another example of your nonsense me levering out FTB’s. Each time I brought a BTL property I had to put down 15% deposit. Meanwhile 1st time buyers at that time could borrow 100%.
    So perhaps u could explain how it is that I’m supposed to have leveraged them out ?
    Find a home, fill out a few application forms & wam bang… they’re home owners.
    We all know the real answer. They’d leveraged themselves out thanks to ludicrous 100% LTV’s fuelling the house price bubble. Along with millions of people from E.Europe flooding in here all wanting roofs over their heads. Along with lack of house building. So blame the FSA & the oafs who got us into the EEC, not me.
    These factors combined with the factu ran up 20 or 30k of debt on your gamble. Namely that it’d help feed your greed2 earn mor by having a degree & live the middle class professional ‘I’ve got a degree’ lifestyle u dream of.

  50. Ferg says:

    Yawn Dave, Yawn. READ CAREFULLY:

    1)You take advantage- people have little option but to rent with private landlords. A mixture of stupid lack of foresight by governments and amateur landlord speculation. You may not take dss (although, you may leave a gift basket and take your tenants’ mother’s dogs out for walks at the weekends too – how would I know) but plenty do –this is state subsidised funding.
    2) Childish quips – I can’t help it Dave, you have to have a giggle when you are faced with the housing nonsense I have to endure. My quip about pimps and drug dealers is the natural conclusion of your love for free market economics with no social conscience – point is that people will use all sorts of nonsense to convince themselves that they are acting ethically.
    3) My point is the rise of the amateur landlord fuelled by stupid get rich quick property programmes. Too many jumping on the bandwagon and sucking up the same sort of properties that would have been available to FTBs to maximise rental yield.

  51. Ferg says:

    4) Again, I can only trust that you put 15% deposits down for each house in your portfolio (although from my past experience, I find trusting a landlord to be quite a leap of faith) as stated. Many landlords didn’t have to and many use the equity on their properties to lever out FTBs…
    5) And finally your nonsense about pursuing education as greed. Dear God Dave your logic is so skewed. So would you ban education Dave? You should bring in a religion – The Book of Dave!! Thou shalt rob the younger generation but thou shall certainly not taketh parteth in educashuuun.

  52. Ferg says:

    As I stated in an earlier post, I am not stating that buy to let is the sole cause of the problem. There are other factors but for you to say that you and your ilk have had nothing to do with the stupidity of the housing market is pure denial.

    How is it possible for people to amass large property portfolios without it having any influence on the market??? NONSENSE. You bang on about supply and demand and market forces – if people are permitted to buy up very large portfolios, doesn’t this lead to a decrease in supply and an increase in demand pushing prices up? Even my basic understanding of market economics tells me that Dave – and yes, I learnt it by rote instead of getting a proper job at 16, going down the mines and amassing my fortune like you *yawns*
    Or has Dave got a unique take on this principle of market economics which confirms his own nonsense? Come on Dave, get thinking of some nonsense….…erm, erm It was like that when I got here, honest.

  53. Ferg says:

    Oh and I AM AT A STAGE IN MY LIFE WHERE I WISH TO BUY Dave, along with many others that are priced out.

    Another load of bilge peddled by the buy to let brigade – they offer ‘flexibility’ to renters who don’t wish to buy. Translation ‘They can pay my mortgage off rather than buy themselves’ – Twisted logic to support buy to let.
    You are not working class Dave. You are now a neo feudal lord living off the labour of others. One of the haves. Buy to let has led to this polorisation and has helped to widen the gap between rich and poor.

    Do you have children Dave? If so, will they/do they rent from you?

  54. Ferg says:

    Also Dave, it is not greedy to want an education to improve your prospects in life. I did get in to debt to study but I also worked whilst studying to help with my funding.

    By your ludicrous logic, a doctor who has studied for years to contribute to society by helping people(not purely take) has done so solely for his own gain!

    As I said before, your logic is laughable!

    You don’t contribute much to the country Dave and you take far, far more. Just admit it!

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Still getting the notifications?
      You must be so tempted 2reply.
      Here’s those not contributing much.
      In fact they’re all ‘take’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325003/Ministers-demand-end-housing-benefits-hysteria.html
      See how happy they look.Everything paid4.No worries unlike u& me.
      Still I know as a leftie you’ll b happy 2c thanks2 their human rights we put a roof over their heads so they can breed in huge numbers.
      Plus with your degree you’ll b able2 earn mor& so pay more tax towards these people in the link so they can live next to Paul McCartney for free or rather at the expense of we tax payers.
      Recognise any from BBC Crimewatch UK most wanted list?
      Let’s b honest our useless immigration policy is to blame along with your student loan 4yu can’t buy.
      No wonder Enoch Powell was the most popular politician of all time. Shame he got sacked for echoing the sentiments of the man in the street.
      There ugo, democracy& free speech throttled by political correctness& EEC human rights judges. So in the end the wishes of the majority r not fullfilled so democracy’s a joke. We all get shafted. The Swiss don’t hav this ****. They hav sense2stay out of EEC.

  55. Ferg says:

    Dave, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this are we? And unlike some, I don’t want to hijack people’s space using it for my own selfish needs. I’ll sign off here and let you carry on bleating and taking more than your fair share – a fitting conclusion eh?

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      As regards me being a parasite & not contributing much. You’ve seen the photos. Turning round a tatty property to what uc then the tenant screwed it up. That’s real practical purposeful usefulness in a world full of 90%BS as I detailed in my previous post. Also I work 3days a week in the application of science for the good of mankind in the NHS. With Physics skills it could be very different. I’m very happy I neither work in an arms factory making killing machines, nor invest pension money in that sort of business. I invest in a useful product for people 2 live in for a year or 2 as they don’t wish to buy or are saving to buy.
      Oh of course u’ll say I do it for greed as I mean I actually expect a salary & rewards4 my efforts at the end of the month. Greedy aren’t I ?
      In that case everyone does everything for greed especially u as u took a degree cos u hope2 earn mor by having it & don’t pretend anything else.

    2. Dave Jobson says:

      In your naïve little left wing world even the ice cream man is exploiting children. Shocking how he expects 2make a profit from selling ice cream 2kids eh.
      Anyone doing anything4money is exploiting people according 2u. In fact by yor own definition ur exploitative. You’ll no doubt get a higher paying job that u would have done in a company that exploit people. So yor degree wil enable u2 extract mor from those exploited by the business that u’ll work 4. You’ll then take out a pension where u won’t hav a clue where the money’s invested. Spread across arms companies, oil companies that dump oil in Nigerian swamps, people getting stuff made in sweat shops etc

  56. Dave Jobson says:

    This degree nonsense was conjured up by frustrated spinsters at the top of their professions all competing for status enhancement.
    Example – nurses, radiographers, physio’s etc don’t need 2b degree status careers.
    The degree people are 2up themselves to care for people. The degree doesn’t test compassion or common sense or conscientiousness, 2of the most important qualities req’d4those jobs.
    Now foreigners r leaving u behind due to the under supply of housing caused by immigration & lack of building.
    Example a Lithuanian couple & also an Estonian couple saved up deposits while they were my tenants & hav now bought. One of them sent me a photo of their new baby the other day on Myspace. UC they didn’t start £30k in the red when they came here.

  57. Dave Jobson says:

    As4 the facts of BTL. It’s dependant on timing. It’s easy2buy a property. See no gain for 10 years. See most of the rent go on the mortgage interest. Have all the aggro & give most of the rent 2 the bank year in year out.
    Many people have got out of BTL as it’s not money for nothing as u claim. There’s risk, there’s dodgy tenants sometimes 2 deal with, there maintenance req’d etc.
    Those that’ve got out have invested elsewhere rather than face the long haul hoping for a gain. They can see better places 4 their capital.
    Finally I’d like u 2c just what I’m like in your mind.
    Call me pop LOL

  58. Ferg says:

    Could you not find a pic of a tapeworm Dave?

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Look how happy they are. U will pay more towards them as u have degree so get good job paying mor taxes.
      Buy hey u r a leftie so as a Cameron hater u glad to pay to house & feed them.
      Ask yourself ru bettering yourself with a degree ?
      Or r u bettering them instead perhaps ?
      Be annoyed, be very annoyed.
      But oh anti immigration folks are all racists aren’t they so u can’t possibly agree with them can u LOL

  59. Cat says:

    Oh fercrissakes…. who ultimately gets the rent money (yes I know it’s technically paid to the tenants) – the landlord. Who set up the horrific housing benefit system – MPs with a raft of property investments. What a surprise!! How much debt will a newly qualified GP now emerge from university with – £65k!!!! This country is jeffed, I wouldn’t like to be getting old and expecting the young to be looking after me anytime soon. Not if I was a landlord that had used his unearned wealth (asset inflation) to price them out of a home. I’m moving to Switzerland! Sod paying tax to pay for your elderly care pal. You’re stealing all the freebies you had when you were young back, so I’m certainly not going to pay for elderly benefits like bus passes, winter fuel allowances and pensions that my generation are never going to see due the black hole in the nations finances. I may come back and pick up a property bargain when the baby boomers are trying to downsize to the far smaller generations behind them in 10 yrs (oh gosh I wonder what that will do to house prices if you believe in the laws of supply and demand). But maybe I won’t – first class degrees from Oxbridge travel well.

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      “Who set up the horrific housing benefit system – MPs with a raft of property investments”.
      Where’s the evidence our useless lax immigration policy &lack of building was somehow designed solely2 benefit MP’s with rental properties?

      Immigration has been horribly out of check under 13years of labour. Brown &Blair were warned repeatedly about fake students & need2 make mor checks on whether they genuine. They ignored that.
      We all know that Brown thought the common man in the street concerned being overwhelmed by half of E.Europe coming to live he regards bigots as he let slip on Sky news while his mic was still on.

      As4the young. How many learn useful skills like how to build or maintain property ?
      No 2busy taking degrees in junk like humanities, media studies &gold course management !
      So none of u lot will ever b able2 build houses will u.
      As 4Switzerland. Good place that.
      They stopped immigration on basis that all their prisons were already full of immigrants.
      Democracy rules there. They not ruled by Brussels unlike us.
      If 100,000 or mor Swiss insist on a referendum on anything then government hav 2 hav 1.
      We’ll never hav choice here on in or out of EEC or…

    2. Dave Jobson says:

      “How much debt will a newly qualified GP now emerge from university with – £65k”
      Well that’ll take all of 7 or 8 months to payback then won’t it. They earn 5 times average salary 4 next 40 years. Good old racket.
      How many people do u know with problems with apathetic GP. Dr gave them painkillers when they really needed2c cancer specialist is the old classic.
      I hear more stories about dodgy Dr’s than LL’s except when Dr’s screw up people die.
      My father kept collapsing with blackouts. Admitted 2hosp three times severely bruised. Spent total of 13 days in hosp.
      Wasn’t till 3rd visit we insisted he have 24hr heart monitor revealing guess?
      It revealed his heart was stopping for sometimes 10 seconds at a time. All he needed was a pacemaker which my radiographer friend on quarter the salary had suggested right at the outset.
      Why didn’t the £120k pa quacks think of that to start with & save all that grief.

  60. Ferg says:

    Get over it Dave! You’ll give yourself a coronary – but you won’t be needing anyone like a doctor will you? In your world, they’d all be too busy doing something useful like investing in property and doing a cheap job on a boiler!!

    You are brilliant Dave, keep ’em coming! It’s the way ya tell ’em.

  61. adil says:

    The house prices have gone up by worrying amounts due to the buy-to-let market. In the 1990s I was looking to buy a 1-bed flat in Dalston for 60K. Now, the prices have more than doubled yet wages have not. It is disturbing to see flat prices on a par with house prices. The market really needs regulation as it is damaging society. It is the same for all aspects of the financial industry. Perhaps buy-to-letters would be better off looking at more honourable wealth-creation schemes. If the cost of living gets too high businesses will move as the workforce will be too expensive perhaps initiating a glut in housing. Buy to let is a very dangerous game and not worth hard working people investing their hard earned money in.

    1. Dave Jobson says:

      Ever heard of supply & demand ?
      Don’t you think the fact that half the population of Eastern Europe has come to live in this most already overcrowded island has something to do with rising prices ?
      Mass immigration is what’s damaging our society & way of life. The roads are gridlocked. You can’t move, yet still more immigrants come here.
      Besides in Southampton prices are where they were at 3 years ago.
      There’s always been a need for rental sector. It’s just that it wasn’t referred to as buy to let until that name was invented in 1996. Before that landlords borrowed on semi commercial mortgages which is pretty much what BTL mortgages are anyway.
      Where are people supposed to live if they don’t want to buy because they are only in a City for a year or two ?
      You have no clue what’s involved in buy to let. There are risks & aggravation just like any other business. Properties need to be maintained & repaired. Supplying decent rental accommodation is a service & product just like any other legitimate business.
      You say the market needs to be regulated. Market forces regulate the market. It’s the banks that need regulating.

  62. It's not me, HONEST. says:

    It’s not me, it’s the banks. It’s not me, it’s the immigrants. It’s not me, it’s the government. It’s not me it’s politicians. It’s not me. It’s anybody but me, ANYBODY. I help. I provide a service for people/families. I work really hard at pricing people out and then collecting their rent. It’s not me. It’s not me, It’s not me, It’s not me, It’s not me. It’s not me, it’s (insert anyone but a buy to let landlord) *holds hands over ears*

  63. Dave Jobson says:


    7] Please explain to me what you do to help people ?

    8] If you have a pension then is it all in ethical funds ?

    9] In fact do you even know where it’s invested ?

    10] You say people are priced out of the market. Yet prices are 11% lower than a year ago. My properties are now worth the same as they were 8 years ago. So for all the risk & hassle I’ve made no capital gain in that time. Even though I’ve had to maintain & manage my properties & given a large part of the rent to the bank as mortgage interest. Take a look at the Landlordzone forums to see some of the hassles involved for LL’s.
    According to Price Water house Cooper ‘Property prices will not recover for another decade and should be viewed as “risky assets”, according to PricewaterhouseCooper’s Economic Outlook report.”
    People who rent risk nothing. People who buy, risk much.
    Please explain why you think BTL landlords have priced buyers out of the market ?

    I look forward to your point by point reply clearly labelled from 1] to 10]

  64. Dave Jobson says:


    4] Rental properties require regular maintenance & every few years they require redecoration & refurbishment. Please explain why you think this does not constitute part of a service ?

    5] Do you even know how to change a tap washer ?

    6] If I screw up for example by providing a poor standard of accommodation & wind up with no one wanting to rent my properties because of that, then I would ultimately have to default on my mortgages & would lose everything including my house. I am therefore totally accountable for decisions I make.
    This is very different to bankers & many people in the public sector such as bureaucrats, civil servants & politicians who due to mismanagement of funds screw things up, often costing the public £millions in the process, yet still keep their jobs. In many cases even if they are sacked or retired early due to incompetence, they still walk away with an index linked pension.
    Please explain why you choose to bash landlords rather than these people ?

  65. Dave Jobson says:

    1] The main reason less people are buying is they now need to save a deposit as 100% mortgages have ceased.
    This new lending criteria will help prevent a boom then bust because is will mean security for lenders who ultimately are lending out people’s savings that need protecting with an equity margin.
    This is therefore a good thing meaning it’s less likely the banks will need bailing out by the tax payer. Interestingly enough, 100% mortgages were never available to BTL borrowers.
    Please explain your reasons as to why you think landlords are the reason for this safer lending criteria to private buyers ?

    2] UK is most densely populated country in Europe largely due to immigration. This population density accounts to a large degree for relatively high prices here compared say to France. Please explain why you think BTL landlords are to blame for this ?

    3] My tenants are in the City only for a year or two due to their career or education. So it’s not worth them paying the costs of purchase then sale of a property in that time frame. Please explain where you think these people should live if there were no rental properties ?

  66. It's not me, HONEST says:

    5) Yes.
    To all other statements, I concur, you are right Dave Jobson. Your services are invaluable to the community and are leading to a better UK. I hope you get your OBE soon.

    P.S: Can you come and change my washer?

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