15 Mar 2012

Rangers fans have their say

Over the past week I have blogged the views of non-Rangers fans about what is happening at Ibrox and across the game in scotland generally. Now it is the turn of Rangers fans themselves.  Celtic fans promised me I would get a great deal of abuse, bigotry and arrogance. They are wrong. What they delivered was considered constructive and informed.

True, far fewer Rangers fans emailed than the deluge of non-Rangers supporters last week and I am still unsure quite what the reasons are for that. Frankly you couldn’t blame them for being catatonic with shock given the shenanigans around Ibrox. I just hope the previous blogs have not put them off. However plenty have got in touch and here’s what these Ibrox faithful have to say.

Like most, Simon took it on the chin, no ducking the issues now:

“Rangers FC, from the boardroom to the supporter have been bereft of any real leadership for more than 2 decades. At a corporate level we suffered the autocratic and egotistic rule of Sir David Murray. He used a fire-fighting style of management…and overspends…”

Further – and this is significant as fans of all persuasion keep on pointing to this across Scotland – he alleges that an all-too-cosy relationship between Rangers and the local media (newspapers in particular), became so serious that people simply lost touch with financial reality – in fact reality full stop. Simon again:

“His (David Murray’s) control of the support was excellent and was via his contacts in the media. This created a culture within much of the support that forgot any critical awareness they may have had when it came to the football club. This meant Craig Whyte was able to ride into town (takeover may be a huge story in itself) and stay on the saddle for so long despite what was out there in the public domain.”

And if I hear the phrase “succulent lamb”  once more,  I’ll go vegan. A notorious story written by a Glasgow journalist praised David Murray’s taste in fine wine and succulent lamb dinners. It’s become a Glasgow by-word for a local media who bought unquestioningly into the lavish claims being made by the likes of Mr Murray at Ibrox.

So on this Simon speaks for many more: Rangers, Celtic, Heart of Caledonian Thistle Academicals, you name it.

Many Rangers fans said critcs just want to see the club destroyed – but that is not borne out by my inbox at any rate, of many thousands of responses.

That said, most  Rangers supporters accepted the fans had been ‘duped’ – to coin Mr Murray’s favourite current word – and  many Rangers fans really are facing it square on and dealing with it. Many say it’s not about football results any longer at all. It is about re-establishing a credible identity for the entire football club so many cherish across Scotland – across the world.

Ross took the chance to put me firmly in my place (rightly) and point up the true losers in all this:

“While you are doing your little blogs and reports from London, remember there are good honest people who have been victims of this, they have paid thousands of pounds to follow their team under the stewardship of men who are not fit for purpose. We, the Rangers supporters are the biggest victims in this situation.”

Agreed. Ross, I can make the blogs bigger if you really want. And for info I’ve not done any reports on TV from London – just Glasgow. I intend keeping it that way.

And for all those out there – many, many of them – who seek to portray the relationship between Rangers and the SFA as some kind of cosy club, well many an Ibrox regular would disagree. Rangers Football Club has been convicted of no crime thus far and should be presumed innocent until the Tribunal and other investigations show otherwise, say many. But they feel shunned by football’s authorities in Scotland in their hour of need. Here’s Frank:

“The SFA and SPL appear to be the only two bodies in world football that do not wish to assist a member club in times of trouble…why is this?  As yet Rangers have been found guilty of no crime!”

It was repeatedly pointed out that Employee Benefit Trusts (the means by which many Rangers were paid, and at least one director we now know) are entirely legal and will bother nobody if properly administered – though much hinges upon that ‘properly’. Robert suggests this is a sideshow and not the real issue at Ibrox at all:

“There is a real anger towards David Murray and Craig Whyte for the position we now find ourselves in. Rather than governance of the SFA and the SPL and looking at a conspiracy that doesn’t exist – I would suggest a more pertinent line of investigation which would be welcomed by all at Rangers Football Club would be into the actions of the Murray Group …”

That being of course, David Murray’s group which bought Rangers, undeniably took it places and to resounding success on the field .

So was due diligence carried out upon Mr Whyte? Undeniably fertile ground in which to dig .That is something Robert, and surely  other fans across the country could agree upon?

On that, as on so many other aspects of Ibrox, much more will no doubt come out in the days and weeks to come.

For now, I’ll get this out, say thanks to all Rangers fans for helping me out when you’ve all got better thngs to be doing, and book my Easyjet passage back to Glasgow for next week – watch this space.

Read Alex Thomson’s previous blogs:

Punish Rangers if they’re guilty, say fans

The dangers of Rangers’ tax shambles

A level playing field?

Follow Alex Thomson on Twitter

Tweets by @alextomo

177 reader comments

  1. Damo Lennon says:

    Rangers fans are not the victims here. They revelled in all the success bought for them by David Murray. The victim is Scottish football, which has been corrupted by Rangers’ use of EBT’s and ineligible players.

    It’s the rest of us who have been cheated. Rangers ate now getting their just desserts.

    1. wattylertic says:

      I think you got to say Rangers fans are victims here, but willing may be more accurate.
      They did indeed have the glory bought by the debt and mismanagement, without a peep at the time.
      I cant see how they are more of a victim in all this, more than other fans who paid the same moeny through the years and got robbed of fair competition.

      1. Marty says:

        These are ill-informed, stereotyped views. Many Rangers fans have been criticising David Murray for a long time. EBTs? The tribunal’s still to give its ruling for one thing. Other enquiries have also still to rule on this and related matters. But EBT payments are by their nature non-contractual. They do not even involve the employer making payments to employees. Thousands of companies have used them including a number of football clubs (among them Celtic!).

        Clubs have a right to spend money. They also have a right to have debt. Countless clubs do these things. And Rangers debt was at a manageable level before Craig Whyte took over, a matter of months ago. So please try to spare us the whingeing, carping and hysteria about trophies Rangers have won.

      2. Carntyne says:

        Yes Marty,

        Thousands of companies have used EBTs but only to provide cheap loans for employees and their families.

        You say that EBTs are not contractual, of course they’re not supposed to be, but paying players wages from an EBT makes them contractual and subject to Tax and national insurance

        You’re right, other clubs have debt, but Rangers debt increased year on year by £10mill, the amount between what they earned, £35mill, and what they paid out, £45mill, which is one of the reasons Rangers went into administration on 14th February, something which you have failed to mention.

        This means they are insolvent.

        They would have been in administration even sooner had they paid PAYE and NI from May last year when Whyte took over, but of course they instead used the estimated £15mill owed as running expenses for the club.

        Mr. Murray had been desperate to sell the Rangers for the last 5 years because he knew HMRC would come knocking on the door sometime soon, and it now looks likely the whole mess will end up, according to Craig Whyte, in a bill for anything up to £75mill.

        Still think Rangers debt was “manageable”?

      3. maf says:

        celtic did not use them, one player arrived at the club with an EBT already in tow, the club rightfully acknowledge it was a tax scam, paid what was due on behalf of the player and closed it immediately

      4. Ryan Malone says:

        It would be fairer to say you can have sympathy for the Rangers fans (although many would disagree) but they aren’t the victims. What have they suffered? Embarrassment for the past month or so? Supporters of other clubs feel cheated out of success, out of income and out of fairness in the sport.

  2. Kenny says:

    Alex

    Apologies for my comment on yesterday’s article. I appreciate that you’ve started by setting out the lie of the land to reflect all opinions and that is fair. However, I think you’ve alluded to the fact that you are going to pursue a number of interesting leads which are obvious to many of us if we are to shed light on the biggest ever scandal to affect UK football.

    Thanks for your diligence in this regard.

  3. seventhbeatle says:

    A glaring error- re: Rangers not owing any tax at the moment. What about the £15million of VAT and PAYE from May 2011 until January 2012?

  4. Mort says:

    Alex

    Another good blog. I do take issue with Ross’ assertion “that Rangers as yet owe no outstanding tax until proven otherwise”.

    Correct regarding the EBT but there is the small tax case of £2.8m conceded by David Murray and the small but not inconsiderable amount of £9m racked up since Craig Whyte took over for the non-payment of PAYE and NI which was the reason HMRC applied to have them put in administration.

    Martin

    1. David Brown says:

      Mort,

      According to the BBC the non-payment of PAYE and NI is closer to 15 million.

      Great blog Alex and as an Aberdeen fan its great to see balanced journalism by involving Rangers fans in the debate.

      Keep up the good work :)

  5. feeno says:

    Rangers fans the victims? Don’t make me laugh. All the other teams fans duped out of cup and league places an money and players are the victims. RFC fans and their arrogance as per usual

  6. Rob says:

    Very interesting blogs, Alex, though to be clear if the two contract scenario comes to pass it will be one of the biggest scandals ever seen in sport, and I (a non-Rangers fan) will have wasted 20 years of my life following Scottish football.

  7. Scarlet says:

    I take my hat off to Simon for his honest opinion of his club’s recent history. It is important for supporters of other teams, such as myself, to acknowledge humility and acceptance when offered openly. I wish him and other supporters like him all the best.

    However, this is wrong –

    ‘It was repeatedly pointed out that Rangers as yet owe no outstanding tax until proven otherwise’

    Rangers have not paid PAYE or VAT over the last year, which is why HMRC pushed for administration.

    An interesting development tonight is the SFA’s decision to charge Rangers with bringing the game into disrepute. Doesn’t make them guilty of course. We’ll see how this one develops.

    1. Bruce says:

      The administrators have conceded this (Non payment of PAYE and NI) is the case. Surely this is a criminal offence. This amounts to Rangers stealing from its staff, doesn’t it?

      1. Jamie says:

        No, it’s not a criminal offence.

        A moral offence? Yes.

      2. Bruce says:

        I’d be surprised if someone involved with Rangers wasn’t charged once all this has settled down.

      3. Marty says:

        Calm down. It’s not a criminal offence to simply not pay your bills, which is what Craig Whye did in this instance.

      4. Bruce says:

        Not paying your employees’ PAYE and NI is hardly not paying your bills. For one thing it was the employees’ money, not Rangers’, which Rangers pocketed without their consent.

      5. Marty says:

        “Not paying your employees’ PAYE and NI is hardly not paying your bills.”

        It is indeed not paying your bills. The money was never in the possession of the employees. The money is owed to the tax department. It hasn’t been paid – yet. It will be dealt with one way or another. But it is not a criminal offence to have just not paid your tax bill.

      6. scarlet says:

        Marty, it remains to be seen whether Mr Whyte’s strategy of not paying bills amounts to knowingly trading while insolvent. This is unlawful.

      7. Bruce says:

        Marty, your desperation to get your team off the hook is getting increasingly, well, desperate. It was money earned by those employees that was nabbed by Rangers. It was your club’s employees money. Sheesh, you’ll be arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a needle next.

  8. John says:

    “Rangers as yet owe no outstanding tax”.

    Er, well, apart from the small matter of the £9 million unpaid VAT and PAYE which, by Rangers own admission, forced them into Administration. And which the BBC later confirmed via HMRC as being closer to £15 million.

    Anyone claiming that Rangers are being harshly treated is kidding themselves on.

  9. Gary says:

    Great work Alex, good to have a real journalist starting to look into these affairs. Just like to say to Ross that a thought should be spared to the fans of every other SPL club that have paid their hard earned cash to support teams that have been cheated for years. As Rangers evaded taxes for greed and glory, it is the fans of the other clubs that have missed out on trophies and European football, you should think yourself lucky Ross as you got more than you deserved for your money!

  10. Row z says:

    Alex

    Rangers have admitted not paying this year’s tax. They are ‘appealing’ a further tax demand. They have agreed to settle another tax infringement and pay penalties. Not Guilty seems rather tainted?

    The ‘ordinary fans’ are not the biggest victims here. For 20 years now they have benefited from financial doping and have cheated the fans of all other clubs. They have used resources they couldn’t actually afford. They broke the rules and cheated the rest.

    They have openly wallowed in their tainted success. And now instead of paying their dues, admitting wrong doing and offering some contrition they seek to play the victim? Surely not!

  11. Mort says:

    Scarlet

    that’s what I said but its awaiting moderation.

    Mor

  12. NeilR says:

    Two words, Alex: “succulent lamb”.

    Enjoy your tofu :-)

  13. paul martin says:

    Ross’s “we’re the victim” bit made me recall the first series of Shameless (how apt !!)
    The bit where Frank has been up to no good with his son’s girlfriend (jeez this is apt!!!)
    “awww, come on son” he says “we’re the victims here !”
    FC Shameless indeed.

  14. J Murray says:

    Rangers have admitted liability for the wee tax case £2.8 plus penalties which comes in at £4.2 million so why did they not pay it. Also the £9 million PAYE. so to say they are not guily is a joke. The only argument is they have still to find out the outcome of the big tax case. Why do the SFA continue to allow them to play players that have not been paid for.

  15. Ian says:

    I find the RFC supporters constant claim that Rangers don’t owe tax at present, very surprising.

    Their Club is in Administration for the non payment of tax under the Whyte era.

    The EBT’s,2nd contracts, FTT & all the other issues concerning Rangers, to their possible detriment, have no bearing on THIS Administration issue, unless, of course, any of them are dealt with under a CVA agreement.

    This is looking more & more unlikely as the story unfolds.

  16. bigpaul says:

    Alex
    I like the fact that you are coming at this from a fresh perspective with no agenda apart from the truth.
    I will state this openly I am a Celtic fan , with no love of Rangers , after all they are our ” bitter ” rivals.
    In all of this mess according to most media outlets , it seems that as a Celtic fan, my and all other Celtic fans opinion of what Rangers have and have not done is not deemed valid. You seem to be edging down that road too with a couple of your asides during these blogs.
    Why ? Is it because we are indulging in a bit of Schadenfreude ? Surely we are entitled. We have long suspected and shouted about all the alleged ” Cosiness” between RFC the media and SFA et al, but were labelled paranoid, by all three. We feel more than a little justified.
    Keep digging at the truth as after all , Celtic fans only want the truth to come out, along with suitable punishment if wrongdoing is proven. Unfortunately , we do not trust the Scottish football authorities to deliver this.

    1. Jimmy says:

      Bigpaul you say that The Rangers are your bitter rivals. I think you are very bitter and it shows. The truth should come out about all the financial doping, the selling of land to a club at a very nominal amount, the way a club behaved that caused Scottish referees to strike and also about the BIGGEST scandal that has ever hit Scottish football which was swept under the carpet. Even though the main instigator was eventually jailed for his crimes the club did everything it could to suppress this monstress crime. No one from Celtic FC should be taking any moral high ground against any other club in Scottish football. All clubs within Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and even the ROI have and do things that other clubs can complain about. A lot of the main clubs within the EPL used EBT’s and their fate awaits if The Rangers are found liable for tax avoidance. Yes tax avoidance not tax evasion. Also they are certain parties out there and in the ROI that have made it their ultimate aim in life to discredit RFC. Those people need to look at themselves and their support for proscribed organisations, what they did in their previous employment and what they actually do for society now. I for one do want an open and just debate on all aspects within Scottish football and not a one sided bitter hatred of ne club that is The Rangers but to be honest I do not think it will happen as the media have their agenda, the SFA have theirs as does the SPL and Alex I believe you will be hijacked by bitter twisted people like bigpaul and others.

      1. Bruce says:

        You, Jimmy, appear to be a very bitter and nasty person. Celtic were a victim of Torbett too (incidentally – Celtic Boys Club was a seperate entity) as are many football clubs and other respectable organisations. Its truly pathetic the way elements of the Rangers support try to use him and his crimes to point score. No doubt we’ll get the usual garbage from Rangers supporters on this issue. But if we’re talking about a club that had a sectarian signing policy for a century and which still has problems letting the Catholics they hire be themselves, a club which has nabbed its employees hard earned pay and a club which now has a huge question mark against it for significant sporting misdemeanours then, since you brought up the moral high ground, I have no problem with us occupying it.

      2. Jimmy says:

        Bruce

        Only one bitter and nasty person and that is you. Even after his conviction Celtic FC used him and his company. Do not deny that as it is fact. I have relatives who worked at Celtic FC for over 20 years and eventually had to lea ve because of the ever growing sectarian element within the working environment. So please do not take the high moral ground. You and I know Celtic FC are biased, bigoted, full of hatred for anything not associated to the RC Church and most of all corrupt to their core. If you think that I believe certain elements of The Rangers are not likewise then you are totally deluded. So please stop being deluded and wake up.

      3. Bruce says:

        Utter garbage. Celtic is so sectarian it often makes protestants its managers and captains. It doesn’t even pass comment.

        Your bitterness and hatred seeps out of every pore.

  17. John C says:

    Rangers “HAVE” been found guilty of of administering the EBT illegally, they are currently appealing that decision, I have no interest in either club, and really dont care about their mickey mouse league. But I’m very surprised that you could not follow such a simple premis Alex.

    1. Bhoyant says:

      I would disagree with your assertion that Rangers have been found guilty of administering EBT’s illegally. HMRC calculated a tax assessment based on their interpretation of the tax laws. Rangers have disagreed with this assessment and have appealed the decision to a first tier (tax) tribunal. The judges from the Tribunal Service will make a determination on the assessment and then they will be found guilty. I say this as a Celtic supporter and I have no doubt they will be found guilty!

    2. Marty says:

      To be clear, there will be no “guilty” or “not guilty” verdict. This is not a criminal trial or anything similar. Rangers have appealed a tax assessment. The tribunal will either uphold that appeal or not.

      1. John C says:

        Marty,
        Penalties were issued, No. HMRC had evidence of administration mispractice, hence the tax demand (HMRC olive branch). Had the scheme been administered properly, HMRC would not have made the demand. Rangers chose to challenge the evidence. Its common knowledge HMRC have failed previously on a similar case, do you think they will make the same mistekes.
        From what I’ve garnered, in a very short time I might add, if the money Walter Smith spent, was used to pay the tax bill’s, this discussion would not be happening.
        There is enough evidence in the public domain to identify evasion, the assessment will identify the extent of that evasion.
        When they loose the appeal it is deemed they have been acting illegally. It really is that simple.
        Notice I say they, you are not responsible for the tax issues, however, enough information was available to you, in plenty of time to save your club. You chose to do nothing about it, you abdicated responsibility for the health of your club.
        Please accept that and learn from it. I have no animosity towards you, I simply feel you are still in denial and thats not healthy.

      2. Marty says:

        Well, thanks Doc. We’ll see what the tribunal says, for a start.

  18. PeteR says:

    Regarding Ross’ comment:

    “…there are good honest people who have been victims of this, they have paid thousands of pounds to follow their team under the stewardship of men who are not fit for purpose. We, the Rangers supporters are the biggest victims in this situation.”

    No, you’re NOT the biggest victims. The biggest victims are those that the tax you used to buy overpaid footballers should have gone to. When a baby died for lack of an incubator, when an ambulance wasn’t there for a heart attack victim, when a soldier died for lack of armour, THOSE are the biggest victims.

    1. Marty says:

      Dear oh dear. What hysterical drivel. Dead babies? Give us a break. Funding of the NHS etc is a much, much bigger affair than this relatively small tax dispute. You really care about these things? Direct your fire elsewhere, rather than trying to exploit extremely serious issues to have a go at a rival football team.

      1. John C says:

        Marty,
        I think you’ll find every penny counts for the greater good.
        Each of those Britsh Government expenditures NeilR identified are all relevant, regardless of the language used.
        Tax evasion brough down Greece, this is not something we should be obfuscating.

      2. John C says:
      3. Nigel says:

        Absolutely correct Marty! Funding the NHS! Something Glasgow Rangers choose not to do when they avoided paying tax!

      4. Ian says:

        RANT AWAY, it disnae wash.

        The Rangers cheating on tax, & guys like you trying to minimise it, brings to mind an old rhyme.

        “FOR THE WANT OF A NAIL.”

        READ it & check what your cheating actually causes.

        It is NOT a victimless offence.

        I have read of Rangers supporters justifying their club’s situation by saying ” THOUSANDS have done it”

        AYE, they have & they have formed the iceberg that the good ship RFC has hit.

        whether the damage is terminal remains to be seen.

  19. shug says:

    It should be pointed out to Frank that the SPL and the SFA are in fact bodies that are investigating or, in the case of the SFA, may serve as the appeals body of investigations into the many, many allegations made against Rangers. It is not their job to be assisting a member club when they are investigating its’ alleged misdemeanors. Instead its job is to implement the rules in the broader interests of ALL member clubs.

  20. Stephen says:

    They do owe tax now.

    They owe £9m PAYE and VAT from this year.

    Plus they owe £49m for the big tax case. If they win their APPEAL at the FTT then they won’t owe it.

    1. Marty says:

      No, it is not owed at the moment. It is under appeal and not legally due at the moment.

  21. joe strummer says:

    Its interesting how many say Rangers have a cosy relationship with both the SFA and SPL, yet NO Scottish club when in administration has ever been treated in such a vicious and vindictive manner as Rangers are now by both associations. The Rangers – haters can’t have it both ways.

    Indeed,this current hateful campaign and endless negative manufactured stories concerning the club are simply driven by sectarian bigots in Scotland who despise Rangers for their perceived tradition or reputation as a Protestant club.

    There’s a saying in Glasgow that Celtic supporters hate Rangers more than they love their own club, and by the irrefutable evidence and paranoia on Alex’s blogs this is undoubtedly true.

    Rangers have committed no crime or Income Tax evasion,yet the Scottish media have their collective tails up on the words of ex-Rangers director Hugh Adam, who not only has had a personal vendetta against the former Rangers Chairman David Murray for years, but who wasn’t even at Ibrox when EBT’s were being employed by the club.

    The one good thing about this current crisis is that a rejuvenated Rangers will finally free themselves from this ” Old Firm ” tag, a label that Celtic and their supporters couldn’t mention enough back in 1994 when the padlocks were 24 hours from being wrapped around the Celtic Park gates due to their club about to go into bankruptcy.

    Only one club in Scotland has been forced by UEFA to play behind closed doors due to their hooligan supporters and that was Celtic back in 1984.

    1. ParmaHamster says:

      Hugh Adam warned the Rangers support back in 2002 about what would happen if David Murray was allowed to continue his egocentric, autocratic rule at the DebtDome – and what response did he get from the Rangers support? A flat dismissal as the rantings of yesterday’s man. He was ridiculed in print by Murray’s press poodles and ignored by the very people he sought to protect.

      And lest you forget Simon – it is no small thanks to Hugh Adam that you have the stadium you have had for the best part of 35 years. If more of you had paid attention ten years ago, your club would in all probability be a million miles from where it is tonight. Hell slap it into all of you when the expected result on the FTT arrives.

      ps One other small matter – only one club has ever been denied the opportunity to defend a European trophy thanks to their hooligan supporters. Who would that be, I wonder? Glass houses, etc.

    2. Bruce says:

      In what way is it vicious and vindictive? The only punishment so far is a 10 pt automatic penalty. Lets see how the charges pan out.

      ‘sectarian bigots in Scotland who despise Rangers for their perceived tradition or reputation as a Protestant club’ Nonsense – and once again, none of this is Rangers fault its all the fault of the big bad tims.

      ‘Rangers have committed no crime or Income Tax evasion’ – Oh yes you have…

      ‘Scottish media have their collective tails up on the words of ex-Rangers director Hugh Adam, who not only has had a personal vendetta against the former Rangers Chairman David Murray for years’ – Sorry, I thought it was all down to those big bad tims?

      Rejuvenated Rangers? There are a great many hoops your team will have to jump through before you can even think of a rejuvenated Rangers.

      ‘Scottish media have their collective tails up on the words of ex-Rangers director Hugh Adam, who not only has had a personal vendetta against the former Rangers Chairman David Murray for years’ – Now is that not a silly statement from a fan of the team that rioted in Barcelona a few times and trashed Manchester. Oh, wait that last one was Chelsea supporters, or Greater Manchester Police, certainly not those lovable Rangers fans.

    3. Colin Stephen says:

      In response to holligan supporters,you(Rangers) made 2european finals and you rioted in both of them aswel as Villareal when you smashed their coach windows and countless other Countries,as for Celtic,we might have had 1game behind closed doors back in the early 80’s but we went to Lisbon,Seville,etc and took 100,000fans and not1arrested and i rmbr we won Uefas award for our fans excellent behaviour that year also,unlike your own who smashed up Manchester,notice the difference yet?Your not called Scotlands shame for nothing.

      1. Marty says:

        No, Rangers have been in four European finals. I could run through plenty of bad behaviour by Celtic fans (or fans of other clubs) but where would that get us?

      2. Bruce says:

        Marty, now you’re just being disingenuous. Every team has some numpties in its support, especially once drink’s involved, but you know perfectly well that Celtic fans have never shown the kind of nasty mass crowd misbehaviour seen when Rangers went to Barcelona and Manchester. You don’t want to run through ‘plenty of bad behaviour by Celtic fans’ because you know your team would come out of that comparison badly.

      3. Ian says:

        Marty,

        HOW exactly does this tit for tat bullsh*t, relating to HISTORICAL events, true or false, relate to RFC’s PRESENT situation?

        The consensus of opinion on here appears to reflect a desire for TRUTH in the present situation, & Alex is developing factual evidence for discussion.

        WHY don’t you try reading it & respond if you have a CURRENT input?

    4. John C says:

      Joe Strummer,
      “Only one club in Scotland has been forced by UEFA to play behind closed doors due to their hooligan supporters and that was Celtic back in 1984”
      My Celtic collegues at the time told me that Rangers were forced to play AC Milan behind closed doors, the reason it was a big issue to them was that some of the esteemed guests had been singing sectarian songs and they were still waiting for the result of the investigation Rangers said they were undertaking, is that true.

      1. Carntyne says:
      2. Marty says:

        “Rangers were forced to play AC Milan behind closed doors”? It was Inter Milan – and it was Inter who were being punished.

      3. John C says:

        Marty,
        Sorry, you are correct, AC Milan were the culprits.
        They were angry about the other issue.

      4. RyanM says:

        We are still waiting to hear the results of that aren’t we. Maybe that one should be looked into.

    5. Peter says:

      “sectarian bigots in Scotland who despise Rangers for their perceived tradition or reputation as a Protestant club”

      See it’s this type of claptrap that has held back not just our game but the entire country too.

      This so-called “Protestant tradition”, this mythical self delusion of grandeur along with the persecution complex which makes you refer to anyone who opposes Rangers (for any reason) as a sectarian bigot, is exactly why many Rangers fans are seen as nothing more than a laughing stock, except you actually believe this ideology so it’s not really a laughing matter.

      How in God’s name did you arrive at this way of thinking? And I put the word “God” in there deliberately because I would like to ask you – how many of the defenders of this “Protestant tradition” actually believe in God?

      Now I know this argument is drifting way off the mark of the current Rangers mess – but bear with me, I think this is an important issue (after all, you brought this up)

      How is it Rangers have this “Protestant tradition” label where other clubs don’t? It wouldn’t have anything to do with your century of opposition to Irish or Catholics would it? Incidentally how many players who played for the Republic of Ireland have played for Rangers?

      And how did Aiden McGeady face a barrage of abuse for daring to choose Ireland over Scotland, yet Stuart McCall or Andy Goram never faced such abuse for choosing Scotland over their native country?

      We all know why, don’t we? The anti-Catholic feelings run deep – deep into the heart of the Rangers community.

      It’s about time Rangers fans came down from their deluded sense of superiority and came to terms with this mythical Protestant identity. Can you please explain to me, what exactly you mean by being a “Protestant club” and why on earth should you be promoting this ideology in the year 2012?

      Aren’t you really stuck in a timewarp – perhaps a yearning to return back to the bygone days of yore when Rangers Football Club wouldn’t employ a Roman Catholic?

      Is that what you REALLY mean when you talk of this “Protestant tradition?” – for the way I see it, it’s not really a Protestant tradition, it’s an anti-Catholic tradition.

      Can you please tell me the link between Rangers Football Club and the Lord Jesus Christ? And more importantly, how is this link promoted by the Rangers fans today? Well, you did say it was a Protestant club, right? Surely it must have something to do with the Lord?

      Or maybe, just maybe (more than likely actually) your definition of “Protestantism” has very little or nothing to do with Jesus, the bible, God or indeed Christianity – but has EVERYTHING to do with Orangeism, Ulster Loyalism, Unionism – and more to the point “Anti-Catholicism”.

      Or maybe the “Protestant tradition” is actually about being loyal to the Queen. Well loyal in song and verse, but not very loyal in practice, if the tax allegations are true. And therein is another problem – this indoctrinated mythical ideology of all things Queen, Loyalist, Protestant.

      Well you can discount wee Lizzie – your club has demonstrated its desire not to pay taxes like everyone else and i’ve not heard one Rangers fan say that money must be raised in order to pay her the tax she is due. It’s all one big hypocrisy isn’t it?

      And you can discount Protestantism because i’m willing to bet more than 75% of Rangers fans on matchday don’t even consider the Lord, bible or Church.

      OK, Loyalist i’ll give you.

      You would have to be pretty brain dead not to know that over the years or even decades, the choice of song coming from the Ibrox crowd, to put it mildly, has not been complimentary to Catholics or the Pope. So let’s not kid ourselves on here.

      And there is another great myth amongst people like you – and that is, if you are not a Catholic, you automatically default to being a Protestant. (Don’t worry if you are an atheist – you’ll be ok as long as you are a Protestant atheist)

      So what does all this mean in this country of ours today?

      It means that the somewhere in society, the system has failed you because it’s absolutely inconceivable how you could end up with these “Protestant tradition” attitudes when the truth of the matter is many of you aren’t really Protestants at all – if you are totally honest.

      You and people like you with your bigoted and archaic attitudes are holding this country back; well you better face up to it Joe boy – the days of “No Catholics need apply” are long gone.

      And maybe, just maybe, if Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II decides she wants her money, Rangers Football Club might be long gone too.

      1. Marty says:

        It is undeniable that Rangers have a Protestant identity, just as Celtic have a Roman Catholic identity – even if many fans of the clubs do not attend church. The “big bad Rangers, lovely wee Celtic” routine merely reveals your own bias.

      2. Peter says:

        I think Rangers fans have this perception of a Protestant identity Marty, but I also think this perceived idea of Protestantism has very little to do with faith, Jesus or God and everything to do with Orangeism & anti-Catholicism.

        If you feel it is undeniable that Rangers have a Protestant identity, can you tell me in what way does this take place?

        Am I right in my assertion above, if not, can you explain why?

        p.s. if you think I am guilty of bias, please explain why.

      3. Colin Stephen says:

        Celtics greatest ever manager and players where protestants in Jock Stein,etc and you then have the gall to say big Jock knew because you hate what the man achieved,lol.Celtic have always had a proud tradition of anyone accepted,all colours,race and creed,we might have a large Catholic support but we don’t discriminate like your lot,your sectarian policy over 100years without signing a Catholic is just unacceptable in todays age and i think you all know the stories about how you have to tell players even nowadays they can’t bless themselves in front of your mob,you even had eggs benedict took off the menu at Ibrox and stopped giving out green straws because this is what your mob are all about,your outdated views are coming to an end and you are a dying breed,you can hold on to your imperialistic views for aslong as you can as i’m sure they won’t be around much longer,you don’t even sing football songs,you are a joke and now the quintessential British club seem to hate all things British now eh?lol,didn’t want to pay the queens taxes while taking soldiers on pitch at halftime and making out you where doing your bit when you where robbing them and e1 else of taxes,you really are Scotlands shame.

      4. Ian says:

        MARTY:
        I take offence at this.

        I am a Protestant by birth, I go to Church for my kids sake although I am not a confirmed Christian.

        I am in NO WAY comparable to YOU nor your ilk.

        Bigotry IS offensive. Why gloat?

        I watched my Preferred team win today, I don’t claim to be a supporter, as I can’t go to games now, but DU deserved their win.

        Have Rangers found their level?

        If so, why keep ALL the overpaid players & others who can’t get a 1st team game?

        Check the cost of this Rangers team, can it be justified when you are in Administration?

      5. Jimmy says:

        That was some rant you had there. Just as Celtic are seen as the Catholic club? They do not have bigots supporting them? Celtic would not offer their greatest manager ever a seat on the board because he was deemed a Protestant? Supporters from Celtic do not sing songs glorifying ethnic cleansing and support of proscribed organisations? I think supporters should stick to football and nothing else. No other club within the Scottish football umbrella should judge other clubs as none are totally beyond approach.

      6. Bruce says:

        ‘Celtic would not offer their greatest manager ever a seat on the board because he was deemed a Protestant?
        – This one is frequently offered up as if it somehow balances out a century long signing policy. But surely the reality is that the families that ran the club then were simply not in the habit of including anyone that wasn’t one of them. Whether Catholic, Protestant, Hindu…. Without a doubt, the old board’s treatment of a manager responsible for the greatest ever achievement by a Scottish team wasn’t great, but lets not go down the idiotic path of suggesting that somehow this demonstrates that Celtic has ever been anti-protestant.

        ‘Supporters from Celtic do not sing songs glorifying ethnic cleansing’ – we don’t. This was the nutter fringe of the Rangers support’s latest campaign before the survival of their club became a more pressing concern.

      7. Jimmy says:

        Bruce

        You obviously think what you right is the truth. May I say what a deluded person you are. The boys of the old brigade does glorify ethnic cleansing, The Rangers did not have an anti catholic policy for one hundred years of more this is a myth put forward by bigots to hide their bigotry for forming a club through bigotry, supporters of Celtic FC continue to this day to voice support through songs of proscribed republican terrorist groups who murdered women and children and you only answer points you feel comfortable answering and leave out the rest. Has supporters of The Rangers sang songs glorifying loyalist groups. Yes they have and no doubt a small minority still do. Does supporters of Celtic FC and staff members have a clear policy against Protestants? Yes they certainly do. So Bruce you are the deluded fool who thinks otherwise. I am laughing at you banging on about how we are deluded but you and your fellow supporters are not and Are lily white, don’t sing offensive songs, do not have an agenda against The Rangers and are totally offended about The Rangers. It paying tax. Tell that to your supporters singing about the Queen, the country they live in that they hate, the armed forces that protect them that they hate and wish them to die and finally not showing respect to fallen members of the armed forces with their anti poppy day event.

      8. Bruce says:

        And here we see just how bitter and nasty Jimmy is. No signing policy – really? So the rest of the world has got that one wrong, has it? To a degree you are correct. It was never just about Catholics, it was about Irish and Scottish Catholics specifically. Have you ever had a Catholic Irishman play in your first team like every other team in the country? Your own players, like Ricksen and Arteta talk about how they’re ‘encouraged’ to keep their faith to themselves.

        The BOTOB glorifies ethnic cleansing? The latest idiotic campaign from your natural home, the bitter, nutter fringe of the Rangers (in Administration) support. See thae fenians, they’re pure as bad as us so they ur. The Queen recently laid a wreath to them. Is she glorifying ethnic cleansing too?

        Small minority? Have you heard the songs at your home and away games lately? Too busy singing along no doubt.

        ‘Does supporters of Celtic FC and staff members have a clear policy against Protestants? Yes they certainly do.’
        – oh Jeez, your stupidity is off the scale now. But, I note, not the slightest shred of evidence despite the masses of evidence against your ridiculous assertion.

        Away back to follow follow and take your seething hatred with you.

    6. Ian says:

      Joe,
      This is the kind of comment that makes me cringe.

      It is also the kind of comment which puts me on the other side in this debate.

      I am not an RC nor a Celtic supporter.

      I watched the Rangers v Kilmarnock game & was disgusted, the Rangers fans were “Up to their knees in Fenian blood” & the ref was a “Fenian Bastard”.

      On a day when Rangers supporters were suppossed to come together & fight to save their club they did Nothing but show themselves up as bigotted scum.

      Years ago, I got caught on the underground, with my kids, when Rangers fans came on.

      Aggression, F*ck the POPE etc.

      I asked an older guy to cool it because my kids were there, worst mistake I ever made, instead of showing a bit of respect for children, I became the focus & we were forced to get off at the next stop.

      THAT display v Kilmarnock brought it all back, on a day you had a chance to stand up proudly for your club you reverted to type, Rascist, Fascist & Sectarian.

      I have no sympathy for you now & if the worst happens, hey, you brought it on yourselves, you had years to change your attitudes & didn’t.

      You have had years to pay your bills & didn’t, you could have cut spending & didn’t.

      You have dragged poorer clubs into debt, including my preferred one, by not paying your dues.

      Hell mend you.

    7. Jammydodgers says:

      I feel your pain mate.. but lets look at this objectively?

      This injury is self inflicted. Both Barrels. Both feet.

      No one else forced or even encouraged Rangers to indulge in financial tactics that were ethically abhorrent and legally dubious, nor to create contractual anomalies in an attempt to gain an illicit competitive advantage… quite successfully as it turned out.
      To use a footballing analogy – which is appropriate in the circumstanbces – if you dive in the box to try and win a penalty unfairy, expect to get booked. It is not the fault of the defender who calls you out, nor the linesman, who flags it, nor the referee who produces the second yellw card.
      To turn around and claim they are all out to get you…?
      Similarly, it is not Glasgow Celtic, fans of diddy clubs (like me) nor the SFA/SPL nor Uefa that put Rangers in this mess.

      And in the same way as the goalie has to just put up with it, and carry on when his striker has been sent of for diving, much as he would if the deception had worked and a dodgy penalty awarded, so the Rangers fans must accept that even if they themselves were not party to cheating, they played on the same team as those who did.

      Take some responsibility, man!

    8. ColourOf Spring says:

      Joe Strummer,

      I’d really like you or any other Rangers fan to once and for all elaborate on this notion of your clubs’ “traditions”. This is an oft used and seemingly innocent and noble sounding phrase but it is known by fans of every other club in Scotland to be coded language for a culture of bullying, jingoistic, imperialist anti-Irish racism and anti-catholic sentiment. You know it – we know it.

      Rangers fans’ behaviour over the last 30 years (most recently Manchester 2008) along with the arrogant and nauseating “we are the people” mantra would seem to lend weight to my argument – and may be the reason your club is receiving little sympathy.

      However, please do elaborate and provide and alternative explanation if you can…

    9. Ryan Malone says:

      There is no such saying in Glasgow. That is just sheer lies. The reverse may be true.

      You just have to look at the songs list of the two clubs to work that out. Celtic have a long reading song list full of football songs and chants. Rangers on the other hand have what? Triumphalism and Sectarian ditties?

      1. Bruce says:
  22. noodle says:

    Ross has a cheek, the Rangers fans aren’t the victims here, it’s every other team that has abided with the rules and not cheated the taxman that have been the victims while the Rangers fans celebrated their ‘tainted’ titles and cups

  23. Jammydodgers says:

    “We, the Rangers supporters are the biggest victims in this situation.”

    It is undoubtedly true that some Rangers fans are real victims in this sorry episode. I have a genuine sympathy for the decent ones out there, a quiet majority lost among a vociferous minority of bigots and sinister trouble makers.

    But whether even the majority of decent rangers fans can lay claim to be the ‘biggest’ victims is not something I can let pass.

    The biggest victims are those clubs that followed the rules and lost out because others cheated, and those organisations that went without, even those workers in the public sector whose livelihoods were lost as a result of a tax evasion born out of a lack of social responsibility.

    The club spent money it didn’t have on players it couldn’t afford and won success on the back of this.

    There was little evidence of calls for restraint or humility from those fans when the money was being spent in this way.

    To an extent this is fair enough… they were enjoying the success, except that many were goading the competition at the time – rememeber the ‘For every £5 Celtic spend we’ll spend £10’ shouts?

    Humility and contrition is what Rangers fans should be showing now, because while they enjoyed their success and lauded it over those whom they vanquished, they must except that this success was being paid for – and therefore – by rights – belongs to those who’s noses they saw fit to rub it in!

    There is little evidence of humility and contrition in the defiant words of most rangers fans. Perhaps this is because the wounds are gaping. But this is an essential part of their rehabilitation… to show that they are ‘sorry for what their club did’, not merely ‘sorry for being caught!’

  24. Simon says:

    I´m “Simon” of the comments used in above blog.

    Would just like to make clear that IMO Murray´s control of the media was for mostly his ends rather then the club.

    That Rangers “bereft of leadership” currently lack a politicaly active wing at supporter level that could be pro-active in helping to protect the club.
    At the moment you have the well established activists within the Celtic-minded multi-media such as CQN (rumoured to have good communication lines to board level) and now the RTC blog.

    They are presently on the attack rather than defending. The verdict on the BTC and other charges will come and we will accept whatever it is but the Celtic-minded want more, they want the death of our club and what we stand for.

    It´s a feeding frenzy and the movers and shakers of the Celtic-minded activists have been busy.
    Make no mistake what they´re real goal is.

    1. ParmaHamster says:

      For your information Simon, the “real goal” of the vast majority of Scottish football fans, regardless of team, is to see justice done in an open and transparent fashion – not simply retribution. It wasn’t only Celtic who lost out while Rangers were spending other people’s money in the quest for success, always bear that in mind. And remember, Scottish football has never been solely about the Old Firm, as much as you would like that to be the truth.

      Another piece of advice – some contrition would go a long way to increasing that majority I refer to. But it’s been clear from the days of Struth and John Ure Primrose that Rangers fans don’t do contrition.

    2. Colin Stephen says:

      Celtic minded people are only getting to the truth,if it weren’t for people like RTC and Phil Mac Giolla Bhain your lot would still be saying how Craig Whyte has a masterplan or some head in the sand stuff like that,you have laughed at others,especially Celtic in the early 90’s when Rangers fans used to wave their money at us and singing about how they would be getting 10in a row,i remember your chairman saying many things about how he would try put Celtic out of existence so the only ppl who wanted to see a team die where rangers and David Murray who actually said alot of stuff back then,i don’t think the Celtic board have even said anything on the issue yet and now is time for you to take your dose of medicine that you gave out to many ppl yrs ago,be a big boy and take it before throwing toys out the pram.

    3. wattylertic says:

      There is a Big Celtic fan online media presence and you have explained maybe why it is so big.

      Simon says “Would just like to make clear that IMO Murray´s control of the media was for mostly his ends rather then the club”

      Celtic fans online are not planting files in Ibrox or such to get you in trouble with HMRC or the SFA? All they are doing is what the main stream media are not for the same reasons you state.

      1. Simon says:

        Opportunistic and organised kicking when someone is down with a goal that isn´t proportionate with alledged misdemeanors.

    4. Stuart says:

      You characterise this intense media scrutiny as a “feeding frenzy” merely to try to deflect attention from the fact that there is a growing awareness of what has been going on at Rangers over the past two decades and it is an issue that reaches far beyond the narrow, parochial horizons of the Scottish football milieu. Fans and non-fans alike are disgusted at the corruption within the club, possibly aided and abetted by collusion from the SFA and a Scottish sports media which is now being exposed as risibly compliant.

      Rangers, if any of the many allegations which are piling up on their doorstep are proven to be correct, have cheated systematically and this is now being exposed by the new-media scrutiny. Vive la revolution!

      1. Simon says:

        Stuart
        You misunderstand, the “feeding frenzy” is amongst the Celtic-minded political and active front that is orchastrating a well organised
        campaign to try and kill Rangers as a football club.

        Judgements will come and consequences aswell if guilt is proven, however the Celtic-minded want more and this agenda should be made clear.

        It goes beyond natural justice and is unhealthy.

      2. Stuart says:

        I understand perfectly, Simon. You want to represent this as a anti-Rangers witch-hunt. It isn’t. It’s the lid being lifted on some very dubious practices by hitherto untouchable organisations. The fact that is involves Rangers is almost irrelevant.

      3. Stuart says:

        Correction – “it involves…”

      4. Peter says:

        If Rangers fans paid any attention to the RTC blog when it first appeared, maybe they could have stepped in and prevented the disaster happening.

        But Rangers fans are now what they were a couple of years ago. In denial.

        The reason these blogs exist is not because there is an orchestrated campaign to kill Rangers – but there IS a campaign for justice and truth, something the media in Scotland would never dream of printing.

        The Celtic blogs were very wary about Craig Whyte taking over Rangers, whereas the Scottish media painted him as the billionaire Whyte Knight.

        Who turned out to be right?

      5. SMcG says:

        Beyond natural justice and unhealthy?

        Pay your bills and don’t use PAYE as an income stream. Realise, with a £10M loss each year, that Mr Micawber’s quotation concerning misery is apt.

        And if you can’t pay your bills, if your liabilites outstrip your assets, come to terms with the fact that the business has no financial future.

    5. chasng says:

      Simon, what does your club stand for?
      Honour?Equality?

    6. Carntyne says:

      What Rangers stand for Simon?

      There were more Rangers fans outside Ibrox burning scarfs and season books because Maurice Johnston had signed for Rangers, than ther has been outside The Big Hoose front door since administration on Feb 14th.

      We know what Rangers stand for alright.

      1. Spartans FC says:

        That’s a tale that has grown in the telling. A friend of my brother, from one of those many ‘mixed-marriage’ families in Glasgow that are seldom mentioned [Mo Johnston’s was one, as was mine] , lived in the multi-storeyflats overlooking Ibrox and was in Edmiston Drive that day. He saw the journalists persuading some local jakeys [cheap-booze drinkers] to pose with burning scarves to make a story. My memory tells me that most people were either glad the move had happened [as I was], or could not have cared less. The Larkhall Rangers Supporters club did maintain a league table that discounted every goal by Johnston, but that was balanced by the disingenuous reaction of many Celtic fans because their biggest beef about Rangers [not signing Roman Catholics] had been overturned by ‘one of their own’ hence the ‘Judas’ comments. The sham that he was hated for saying he would rejoin Celtic then reneging was just that, a sham. As it happens, I was in the other side of the country on the day,in the local Labour Club with my Celtic-supporting friend, watching the story on TV over a few hangover curers. The biggest reaction in a very mixed crowd was from a Hearts fan and a Hibs fan who got into a fight about it. As far as recent events are concerned, one thing is certain: the really culpable people will not be punished.

      2. Marty says:

        The “fans” burning scarves and season tickets were local layabouts paid by a newspaper in search of a sensational picture (another paper caught them at it).

        Yeah yeah, I know: “local layabouts – what’s the difference?”.

    7. Ian says:

      I read that your chairman met with the Vanguard Bears & that they planned to march on the BBC because of the report on Whyte.

      I didn’t know who the Vanguard Bears were, I imagined a quasi official group who were good at organising events etc… AYE, they are! If you were Hitler. How MORE political do you want to get?

      In reality you have had Salmond, his Sports Minister & some MPs in Westminster active in your defence & actually proposing ” a special deal” because of your status as Part of the Fabric of the Country.

      I think this is all part of the REAL problem, I don’t think Rangers folk & their supporters realise the depth of this crisis, they are used to getting off with things, used to a media response which is favourable.

      There is outside media interest now & I feel the situation is escalating & things are becoming harder to cover up or ignore.

      1. Bruce says:

        ‘You misunderstand, the “feeding frenzy” is amongst the Celtic-minded political and active front that is orchastrating a well organised campaign to try and kill Rangers as a football club.’

        And to think its the Celtic support that’s characterised as paranoid.

    8. Cardiffbhoy says:

      Simon, I have to compliment you on your comments on the main article above, I think you have summed up the situation better than any non-Rangers fan could.

      I think however you are now being dragged into an argument that you have little chance of winning, and are displaying a paranoia that us Celtic fans would be proud of.

      There is no doubt that websites such as CQN and RTC  are pushing the agenda here, however that is  more to do with the absence of any credible investigative journalism in Scotland than by your view that the Board at Celtic are feeding them information. Much of the information is available in the public domain, for instance the track record of Whyte, or as you correctly point out, the vast income that Murray has taken out of RFC.
      You will note if you read CQN or RTC that many fans of Rangers and other clubs read and post without abuse. I am not aware of any such Rangers blog where opposing fans are allowed such opportunities. Rangersmedia and Followfollow appear to appeal more to the “traditional support” than to forward thinkers such as yourself.
       

      You query the timing of the complaints into the EBT and the 2 contracts issues, surely if they are wrong then the timing doesn’t matter. Do you suggest that as they happened a long time ago they do not merit investigation ? So if someone was murdered 20 years ago that wouldn’t matter ?

      1. Simon says:

        Cardiff
        WRT to CQN
        The communication lines that run between it and upstairs at Parkhead are talked about within the Celtic support, it´s not only something dreamt up by Rangers fans.
        I can`t comment on how “friendly” on any messageboard they have as I´ve never visited it.

        RTC blog
        This I do know about and as I said earlier it has evloved into a more Celtic-minded site (around New Year time) after a more objective beginning. The blogger RTC said more or less the same.

        Rangers supporters unless they tow the line will be forced off one way or the other.
        A sort of all comment is welcome aslong as we aprove it.

        I would like to see Rangers have similar organisation in this respect because without it we become easier targets.
        Only I´d hope we used it in a more dignified manner than trying to destroy another football club.
        I do accept that there are those who are in it to see a perceived justice to be done but the movers and shakers want more.

        Re. Timing, the arguements are in other posts.
        Ask Tony McKelvie, RTC and Hugh Adam about it.

  25. Simon says:

    You write “…he (Simon) alleges that an all-too-cosy relationship between Rangers and the local media …”

    I(Simon) didn´t allege this. The relationship was between David Murray and the media.
    David Murray used this relationship for his own ends and to control the support.

    1. Carntyne says:

      David Murray wouldn’t have got the time of day from the media if he hadn’t bought Rangers.

      His cosy relationship with the media was only because he WAS the owner of Rangers.

      Now why should that be?

      It couldn’t have been because most in the media are Rangers supporters, could it?

      Surely not!

    2. Marty says:

      Countless organisations or individuals try to manage the media – it’s not a conspiracy. Some do it better than others. Jock Stein was said to be extremely adept at it….

  26. Alex Scott says:

    I notice an earlier post is ‘awaiting moderation’. Did it perhaps reveal some rather uncomfortable home truths?

    Numerous top English clubs have used tax avoidance schemes and 8 are under investigation for EBTs.

    Is there a comparable furore in the English media? Well, hardly.

    Rangers first used EBTs in 1999-2000 and scrupulously reported them in their annual accounts. There was no attempt to deceive.

    Why has it taken until 2012 for Scotland’s football authorities to act? Is it a coincidence that the SFA and the SPL only announced inquiries after the club had entered administration and could not defend itself?

    The sum Rangers are supposed to have benefited from EBTs equates to that drawn from the club over the same period by the Murray group. So much for ‘financial doping’!

    1. Jammydodgers says:

      Alex,

      Firstly, I understand Arsenal have already repaid several million pounds in settlement of an EBT style tax issue – and did so in advance of Rangers (as have the Bankers Goldman Sachs).

      I have been led to believe that HMRC are pursuing about £1.4Bn total from misused EBTs, which would mean that Rangers owe about 4% of the overal total HMRC are targetting for repayment, which is about 3 times the average owed by those being pursued.

      It therefore seems likely that Rangers are likely to be among those with the biggest potential liability and this probably explains why they are among the first to be challenged (stands to reason that HMRC would litigate after the biggest debts first!)

      I fully expect HMRC to pursue others just as vigorously subsequently, including the 8 EPL clubs rumoured to be involved.

      I honestly believe that there is no specific persection of Rangers by HMRC here that is not being meted out just as squarely to all similar tax cheats… and deservedly so in my view.

  27. PuyolsBarnet says:

    Rangers fans the victims?? What about the clubs/fans that have been deprived trophies and European places in Scotland?? What about teams all over Europe who have been playing against a team that may have had ineligible players??

    How can Rangers fans be victims and have been duped when it took Celtic fans knew over a year ago about Craig Whyte? Rangers fans could have known, but they didn’t want to believe what they felt was a ‘timmy conspiracy’ being published by a well known blog about the tax case.

    As for Craig Whyte, een Alastair Johnston said he didn’t have the funds, yet David Murray and Rangers fans are the victims??

    A few days before Administration was announced, Celtic fans where singing about Rangers going bust. How can a few thousand of them know, yet Rangers fans didn’t??

  28. Bruce says:

    The repeated attempts to separate Rangers from the actions of David Murray and Craig Whyte when they were in charge smacks of ‘a big boy did it and ran away’.

    1. Simon says:

      Rangers will have to suffer the consequences of what Murray and Whyte have inflicted on the club.

      But corporate recklessness and vandalism were inflicted on RFC alongside the infamous Smoke and Mirrors that helped not only keep the support in the dark but created divisions.

      Now is the time to wake-up and re-form our club.
      One that will be more aware and pro-active of the political scene and re-establish an institution to the place where it belongs.

      1. ParmaHamster says:

        Simon.

        You are the ManfromDelmonte and I claim my £5!

      2. Colin Stephen says:

        Great institutions don’t rob the taxpayer for millions and then rob their own staffs PAYE and NI contributions aswel as not paying other clubs their gate money from the Scottish cup,your club is back in there rightful place,David Murray bought his way to many titles over the years and you where in a false position,now you are back where u belong and you don’t like it,well tough.

      3. Carntyne says:

        The place where it belongs?

        Ah yes, ‘the we are the people’ supremist argument.

        Isn’t that what gort the club into it’s present difficulties?

  29. Alistair McColl says:

    There is considerable irony in the old media being subjected to repeated barbs (not entirely unjustified, of course) while the new media in the guise of blogs such as RTC and CQN is accepted at face value.

    I wonder if the links between Celtic FC and these two blogs are widely known.

    Cui bono and all that.

  30. old codger says:

    When I read the heading ‘Rangers fans have their say’ my thoughts were good at least there is going to be a balanced debate here. In stead all I have read is what I’ve come to expect in the media in Scotland over the last few months is constant attacks from irate Celtic fans with their anti Rangers agenda. Do they never tire of their hatred. At least Alex you might get to see a small sample of the one sided media war being waged up here.

    1. Bruce says:

      This one sided media war, is it the one where nearly every Scottish journalist insists that Scottish football can’t survive without Rangers?

      (Although it may be true that Scottish sports journalism can’t survive without rrrra Berzzz)

      Its not hatred, OC, its fun. We’ve been waiting for years for the truth about Rangers to start coming out and we’re enjoying it.

    2. billy says:

      old tadger

      enuogh said

  31. Tommy says:

    Simon, in his various replies, is quick to comment on minor points but fails to correct himself on his original allegation that Rangers F.C.(in administration) do not yet owe HMRC any tax.

    If Simon is a fair minded ‘bear’ then he and others like him should be very concerned at the present posturing of the Rangers Supporters Trust and the Vanguard Bears who now seem to be jockeying for a prominent position in the new Rangers, if or when it is created. Their ilk will destroy any attempt to bring Rangers into the 21st Century.

    I read the Rangerstaxcase blog and, like many other non-Old Firm fans, I find it intelligent and informative, but more importantly, crucial in the campaign for the equality of ALL clubs in the Scottish league. Some of the most valuable contributors are fans of provincial clubs. I cannot therefore agree with Simon that the RTC blog is a messageboard for Celtic zealots or a mouthpiece for the Celtic Board.

    Finally,I am delighted that a respected journalist has now taken an interest in perhaps the biggest football scandal in the UK. I hope that Mr Thomson will be allowed to do his job without being thwarted by other members of the MSM in Scotland.

    1. Simon says:

      Re.RTC blog

      I wrote…”At the moment you have the well established activists within the Celtic-minded multi-media such as CQN (rumoured to have good communication lines to board level) and now the RTC blog”.

      My opinion is that like all things it evolves.
      At the beginning and up until the end of 2011 I´d agree in as much that it was partly intelligent and yes, informative.

      Since the turn of the year the tone has become much more Celtic-minded and a quick skim through is all that it´s worth to many who previously read with more care.

      The blogger RTC alongside the movers and shakers (eg PMGB, TMcK, PB etc.)
      is playing an active part in trying to bring down Rangers FC with a disproportionate thud compared to the charges.

      I´d point to the orchastrated and carefully timed campaign on player registrations as an example.

      1. Simon says:

        Should read…..

        My opinion of the RTC blog is that like all things it evolves.
        At the beginning and up until the end of 2011 I´d agree in as much that it was partly intelligent and yes, informative.

      2. Bruce says:

        Its hardly orchestrated and carefully timed. Almost from the second the EBT issues flared up, people started asking questions about things like side letters and player registrations. As the story has mushroomed, these questions have gained, inevitably, more and more traction.
        Orchestrated? Carefully timed? You think the Celtic support is working according to an agreed plan with The Sun, The Record, The SFA, HMRC, etc….?

        Anyway must go. Don’t want to be late for the 11am meeting of the Nail Rangers committee.

      3. Simon says:

        Bruce
        It´s called an evolving opportunist bandwagon.

        Don´t be late !

      4. Carntyne says:

        Paranoia Rules!

      5. old codger says:

        Carefully timed…I doubt it, orchestrated….most definitely, How did Alex come to hear of it? most likely hooked like they tried with Gabrielle Marcotti.

      6. Bruce says:

        How did Alex come to hear of it? It might have had something to do with the fact that every national news outlet has run Rangers (in Administration) stories in the last month. Are you really so daft as to imagine that Alex had been oblivious about all this until this big bad tims got on his case?

      7. old codger says:

        More than likely constant tweets from you and like minded souls, desperate to make sure the demise of Rangers succeeds, hence the reason your on here an other similar sites. To answer your previous question, no I am NOT Leggo,and I presume from your knowledge of him, you must be a follower.

      8. patrick says:

        old codger,

        in what way will people encouraging Alex’s investigation in this matter ‘make sure the demise of Rangers succeeds’?

        Ignoring the poor wording for now, are you suggesting a reporter merely trying to get to the facts will be bad for Rangers?

        Also, it seems you are suggesting that the ‘demise of Rangers’ is down to outside influences. Are you serious?

        By the way with ‘hence’ you don’t need to write ‘the reason’ afterwards. ‘Hence you’re (not your) on here’ rather than ‘Hence the reason you’re (not your) on here’.

        And why on earth shouldn’t Bruce be on here, a news site covering a big story in Scottish football? And other similar sites? The BBC? ITV news?

      9. old codger says:

        In no way am I suggesting the ‘demise of Rangers’ is down to outside influences. What I am suggesting an agenda in certain places, with relish, I may add, to make sure the story gets to a wider audience. The digital equivalent of ‘holy willies’ or ‘the steamie’ As an aside, With which branch of the syntax police are you invovled?

      10. patrick says:

        The Pedant Special Branch!

        I don’t think there’s much wrong with making sure this story gets to a wider audience when one considers the complete lack of faith people have in the local media to cover the story properly or the authorities to act with transparency.

        I think most people – and I include non-Celtic fans – feel this way and just want all the facts to come out. It seems the best way to do so is for impartial outsiders like Alex to investigate.

      11. old codger says:

        Impartial outsiders, I can live with, school snitches have always left a nasty taste in the mouth, you know the kind? please miss, Jimmy did it!

      12. Bruce says:

        School snitches? Oh grow up.

        Or are you suggesting that we overlook the mounting evidence that Rangers (in Administration) have been up to no good. Or should we just leave it to the ever vigilant Scottish football authorities and Scottish press to ensure justice is done?

      13. dryyoureyes says:

        yeah – bully’s and cheats always hate “school snitches” and use intimidation and manipulation to prevent any “snitching”. Unfortunately, not facing consequences for actions results in delinquency.
        The ultimate delinquent – RFC, think its a long spell in the naughty corner this time.

      14. Bruce says:

        Nah, I don’t tweet. And I look in on Leggat because he really is just about the most entertaining figure on the Scottish football interweb. Sadly for him, its not intentional. Like yourself, his paranoia levels leave us tims, for once, lagging far behind

  32. Patrick says:

    I am pleased that there are Rangers fans out there who are showing humility and are ready to accept the consequences of their club’s actions. This must be hard to do and I commend them.

    However, one can’t help but sense an underlying feeling that “it was someone else’s fault”. The sudden turnaround on Craig Whyte is testament to this and for the Scottish media it is now open season on him.
    Further, there appears to be a similar tide turning on David Murray, in the support at least, less so in the Scottish media. Just listen to Chick Young still try to defend him.

    I cannot accept that Rangers fans are the biggest victims here. It is the rest of Scottish football that has been cheated here.
    Also, the gloating during the ‘good times’ weren’t tempered by a single concerned soul.
    Hugh Adam was laughed out of town when he warned them where it was all going.

    The assertion that they don’t owe any tax is ridiculous. There’s the VAT, PAYE etc from the last year but the thing that seems to have been misrepresented is the fact that the £45m was a bill given to them by HMRC. The BTC is on Rangers’ appeal to this.

    Finally, the big issue with the EBTs is not so much their legality. It’s whether they were administered incorrectly within the rules of football. The ‘two contracts’ thing.

  33. wattylertic says:

    Rob says
    “The SFA and SPL appear to be the only two bodies in world football that do not wish to assist a member club in times of trouble…why is this?”

    I ask myself this same question as a Celtic fan.
    The SFA silence is deafening, what reason can they have not to defend a member club? why let a vacuum appear and let Scottish footballs name be dragged through the mud?

    One may come to the conclusion the paper work (from Rnagers to SFA) submitted is not all in order.

  34. fleshers haugh says:

    it is our fault and no one elses – of that there is no doubt

    you’re quite right when you say let’s wait for the results of these charges.

    IMO

    – there is no accusation of criminal intent on rangers part from HMRC. the tribunal is assessing the level of tax avoidance, if any, in rangers deployment of perfectly legal and publicly accounted for ebt’s

    – two contracts seems frankly bunkum

    there are many vocal and politically savvy people in scotland who want to see rangers die – the scent of blood is in the air the vultures are circling

    I can totally accept that. the biggest club in scotland is going to get a good kicking when its down – we’ve not been slow to dish it out ourselves in the past – its part an parcel of the game.

    but lets stick to the facts

  35. SFTB says:

    Simon

    “but the Celtic-minded want more, they want the death of our club and what we stand for.”

    Some might want that but there is little that we, in the Celtic support, can do or have done to make it so. You seem to be stuck at one of the early stages on the Kubler-Ross model.

    Neither Celtic FC nor any other big bad Fenians have killed or could kill your club. The man who killed Rangers was David Murray and he was cheered to the rafters whilst doinf so, as he distracted you with silvery baubles while he sent you to your grave. Craig Whyte was merely the jackal who came to strip the carcass of the wounded beast.

    You died because you spent more than you can afford. You took the “speculate to accumulate”hypothesis to levels that Viv Nicholson would have decided were a tad reckless. You swallowed the ENIC money from Joe Lewis, the Dave King money, the tax avoidance money and the money transferred from the Murray (MIH) Group when the Rangers fans failed to back Murray’s share issue. All that money wasted in the vain pursuit of an aim achieved by the guy your support have been regularly slandering, who did it with 11 Scots born within 35 miles of Glasgow.

    Apart from laughing like a drain, I did nothing to achieve the death of Rangers. In the face of lost titles recently, I preached financial prudence to my club because I wanted it to be there for generations to come. If that meant a few lost titles and cups, so be it, a small price to pay.

    Rangers fans had the same choice. They could have noticed that their finances made no sense. They could have spotted that their grounds were over valued on their books. They could have protested the Advocaat reckless expenditure. They could have protested the post-Kaunas splurge. They could have protested the purchase of Jelavic when their financial future was being reported as bleak. They could even have raised an objection when they tried to buy Daniel Cousin on the day they entered Administration.

    But no cries for restraint were heard because you were too busy spending and not planning to pay your debts down. You got rid of the Lloyd’s representative that was trying to bring back financial reality to your Board. He was ousted by Walter’s whispering campaign and the Old Board’s frustrations with being told to settle their debts.

    That is why you have died. Do not wait till tomorrow’s deadline to find out that the various groups of White and Blue Knights, riding to the rescue, do not have the funds to buy or run the club facing these debts. Do not wait to find out the Big Tax ruling; it will not be good news. And do not wait till the court wranglings have unraveled who owns what at the Big Hoose. Jarndyce vs Jarndyce will be settled quicker.

    There is only one way out. Liquidation, the loss of a 140 year history, and some newco starting from scratch to which you can transfer your allegiance.

    You can go on blaming everyone else for killing your club. I’d love to take the credit for such a worthy outcome but honesty forbids. It was David Murray and every cheerleader he had at Ibrox and in the media who brought you down. if we were playing Cleudo it was David Murray in the Bank Vaults with the wallet open.

    Case (and club) closed.

  36. Carntyne says:

    Alex, if you would like a real flavour of the majority opinion of Rangers supporters go to….

    http://forum.followfollow.com/register.php

    You may be horrified, but not disappointed.

    There are many decent Rangers supporters, but they are by far outnumbered by the kind you will encounter on the above website.

    1. Simon says:

      Carntyne
      You make unconstructive arguement and seem intent on illustrating some of the points I made.

      To pretend that everything is so black and white only serves to show that you lack any objectivity.

      1. Carntyne says:

        If you contest anything about followfollow say so.

        A quick look on there by any objective searcher of truth will bear out what I’ve said

        I don’t understand what you mean by “to pretend that everything is so black and white”

        I have made a point or two.

        Let’s see if you can debate properly by addressing those points.

  37. Davie says:

    Aye, I have great sympathy for Rangers fans when I think of them cheering and partying as I watched Rangers time and time again humping my team.

    Now I find out that they cheated to put their team on the park, I’d have chucked Scottish football if I’d know that, but I’d just be another diddy team fan that’s left his diddy team.

    I will stop supporting my team if Rangers do not take the consequences of their cheating.

    1. Marty says:

      “Now I find out that they cheated to put their team on the park”.

      Eh? Have the various tribunals and enquiries given their rulings?

  38. Alex Scott says:

    The first casualty in the propaganda war being waged against Rangers is context. The use of tax avoidance schemes is endemic in the English game. 8 English clubs are being investigated by HMRC for EBTs alone, although there has been practically no related media coverage. In Spanish football tax owed by football clubs runs into hundreds of millions of euros. Therefore, phrases like the ‘sporting fraud of the century’ are absurd.

    Rangers FC stipulated the sums it allocated to EBTs in its annual accounts for more than a decade. There was no attempt to hide this scheme whatsoever. The following question then arises – why is the issue only being investigated by the football authorities more than a decade after EBTs were first used? The answer, of course, is that Rangers’ enemies have waited until the club entered administration and is unable to defend itself.

    What about the sums Rangers benefited by? The estimate widely used (even by Rangers’ critics) is £24 million. Coincidentally, this figure equates to the sums flowing from Rangers FC to the business empire of the club’s erstwhile owner Sir David Murray over the same period, at least £6 million of which involved payment for setting up the trusts. It is more than likely that at the conclusion of the HMRC case against Rangers the club will find that EBTs have cost it money rather than having saved it any.

    Indirectly, the tax case precipitated Rangers’ descent into insolvency because Lloyds/HBOS – bankers for the struggling Murray business group – desperately sought to offload the club beforehand and forced a sale to the deceitful Craig Whyte.

    Allegations of ‘financial doping’ are particularly ludicrous given the huge amount of help Celtic FC has received from national and local government in relation to Commonwealth Games funding and the radical redevelopment of the environs of Celtic Park. In the mid-90s Celtic benefited from the sale by the local council of large tracts of land surrounding the stadium for £1. In stark contrast, Glasgow councillors have thwarted Rangers’ development plans at every opportunity.

    The hysteria surrounding Rangers’ tax problems has degenerated into a squalid witch-hunt. Campbell Ogilvie is the latest figure at the SFA to be subjected to a smear campaign. A succession of individuals, including former President George Peat, Chief Executive Gordon Smith and referee chief Hugh Dallas, have been forced out as a result of pressure by people with Celtic FC’s interests foremost in mind. There is absolutely no comparable reaction to the use of tax avoidance schemes in English football, thus confirming the speciousness of the extreme lobbying from Celtic-friendly sources – in the case of the CQN and RTC blogs, sources which are manipulated by senior figures within Celtic FC.

    In conclusion, there is a wider game being played which may have serious repercussions. Individuals connected to Celtic FC see Rangers’ troubles as the perfect excuse to paint Scottish football as biased and corrupt and thus turn the issue into a platform from which they can lobby UEFA for permission to join another league. This is what the shameful propaganda onslaught is all about.

  39. Simon says:

    I fear that you are being duped by a propaganda campaign emanating from Celtic messageboards and two websites/blogs, namely, the Rangers Tax Case site and Celtic Quick News. There is strong evidence that these outlets are being used by a senior official within Celtic FC to disseminate information that is plausibly deniable with respect to having originated within the club.

    The key points I wished to put across were that there was absolutely no comparable furore within the English game where tax avoidance is endemic (8 clubs are being investigated for EBTs alone) and that Rangers’ antagonists within Scotland waited 12 years until they ‘discovered’ the contracts issue associated with EBTs – and only after the club entered administration and could not defend itself. The EBTs were scrupulously reported in the accounts and discussed at AGMs; there was no attempt to deceive. Moreover, the financial benefit to the club was effectively zero because of money flowing to the Murray business empire. Of course, the overall impact has been disastrous because the club is fighting for its existence.

    Much has been made of the cosy relationship between certain members of the Scottish press and Sir David Murray. This is certainly regrettable but it cannot in any shape of form be interpreted as favouritism towards Rangers as a club. On the contrary, Rangers supporters have effectively been made the whipping-boys of post-devolution Scotland. Recent legislation can see longer terms of imprisonment for singing songs than instances of serious assault or knife-crime. The country’s prosecutors have told police that Celtic fans’ songs in celebration of the IRA will escape censure while Loyalist anthems will be targeted.

    It is against this background that the demands to see Rangers FC punished and even consigned to history must be seen. There is something of a kulturkampf within Scotland at present. In essence, Rangers FC and its support are reviled not only by Scotland’s Roman Catholic community but also by the professional middle-class and the politics-media-legal complex. A decade-long, one-sided campaign by Scotland’s politicians to eradicate ‘sectarianism’ has served only to make matters very much worse. Rangers supporters now feel ostracised while Celtic supporters have been radicalised and relations between the two sets of fans are the poorest in living memory.

    Unlike football clubs in England, Rangers and Celtic have a cultural significance far outweighing their ability to play the game. Very little within Old Firm rivalry can be taken at face value; each side is desperate to achieve the upper hand. However, despite the fierce enmity between the two sides, the clubs’ officials have always previously avoided any action or behaviour aimed at damaging their opponent. I believe this line has now been crossed and there is bitter resentment among Rangers followers as a consequence. The foregoing undercurrents represent a far bigger news story than the superficial issue of Rangers’ immediate financial problems. Should the SFA and SPL be pressurised into stripping Rangers of league titles and cups acquired during the last ten years, which appears to be the game-plan of senior figures within Celtic FC, Scotland will face a troublesome summer.

    1. Simon says:

      Would like to make clear that the post above at 9.02am was posted on behalf of Alex Scott, who put´s his point accross far better than I.

    2. cardiffbhoy says:

      Simon, I have to compliment you on your comments on the main article above, I think you have summed up the situation better than any non-Rangers fan could.

      I think however you are now being dragged into an argument that you have little chance of winning, and are displaying a paranoia that us Celtic fans would be proud of.

      There is no doubt that websites such as CQN and RTC are pushing the agenda here, however that is more to do with the absence of any credible investigative journalism in Scotland than by your view that the Board at Celtic are feeding them information. Much of the information is available in the public domain, for instance the track record of Whyte, or as you correctly point out, the vast income that Murray has taken out of RFC.
      You will note if you read CQN or RTC that many fans of Rangers and other clubs read and post without abuse. I am not aware of any such Rangers blog where opposing fans are allowed such opportunities. Rangersmedia and Followfollow appear to appeal more to the “traditional support” than to forward thinkers such as yourself.

      You query the timing of the complaints into the EBT and the 2 contracts issues, surely if they are wrong then the timing doesn’t matter. Do you suggest that as they happened a long time ago they do not merit investigation ? So if someone was murdered 20 years ago that wouldn’t matter ?

    3. dryyoureyes says:

      Oh dear Simon, the level of self-delusion, utterly terrifying and on the whole the reason many other Scottish football fans are enjoying the fall so whole-heartedly. This kind of nonsense, based upon no fact, just based upon repetition. It is frustrating to have lived with it and it to have been accepted as truth and we can see an end to it. Frightening for you Simon, but utterly liberating for the rest of us. I find I am almost holding my breath, unable to believe that the end might finally be in sight.

    4. rab says:

      “a troublesome summer”-the old rat in the corner -threat of menace -you may have trouble in mind sir but most of us want to live peacefully and have football in its place –

    5. Carntyne says:

      So Scotland may face a troublesome summer if Rangers are properly punished.

      Is that a threat Simon?

      You are just showing yourself up to be a thug.

  40. Michael says:

    Interesting take on this simon! you must add two plus two and get a rangers support that are all bigoted monsters more akin to a horror B Movie!
    No doubt that SCOTLAND has a problem with bigots. Almost every club has had problems, such as poppygate or celtic fans at arsenal singing pro ira songs glorifying terrorists (the videos on utube) . rangers are worse than others but that has more to do with what they sing (ie religous ethnic slurs) which will stop if the sfa spl police stop it by fining and banning the fan ring-leaders. But the rangers support are in danger of paranoia becoming reality if as seems likely a useless sfa spl that are scared for their on jobs have the knifes out to prove how good they are! If rangers have broken any rules then they will take the pain but scape-goating wont fix every problem with scottish game.
    Ps to all the people saying rangers and sfa spl have been in cahoots I would point out 2008 uefa cup final when rangers had to play 9 games in thirty days but their opponents where given many rearanged games by the russian fa
    if they “paid them off” i would ask for the money back ( defo could use it lol)

  41. Bruce says:

    ‘I fear that you are being duped by a propaganda campaign emanating from Celtic messageboards and two websites/blogs, namely, the Rangers Tax Case site and Celtic Quick News. There is strong evidence that these outlets are being used by a senior official within Celtic FC to disseminate information that is plausibly deniable with respect to having originated within the club.’

    A truly extraordinary statement without one single shred of this ‘strong evidence’. So, again, this cabal of Celtic messageboards and senior Celtic officials got HMRC to issue a tax bill to Rangers? This cabal made Rangers keep its staff’s PAYE and NI? This cabal got HMRC to push Rangers into administration?

    Listen to yourself. You talk about Rangers facing up to facing the consequences of its actions. You do not show the slightest sign of being ready to do that.

  42. Simon says:

    The post you refer to was by Alex Scott and one that I fully endorse.

    The “cabel” didn´t issue the tax bill but the “cabel” are pushing for what would amount to disproportionate punishment, ie. the end of the club full stop.

    The orchastrated and well timed campaign (eg. TMcK efforts to push stories linked with info held by RTC as Rangers entered administration. Info that had been held for a considerable time)

    Efforts to raise funds for Rangers have seen distasteful campaigns originating from the RTC blog to effectively cut off the oxygen supply.

    So if we´re found guilty then we´ll accept the consequences. There is no need for the Celtic-minded to occupy their lives with our problems.

    It´s actually ironic at a time when your team is complaining of the lack of attention.
    Instead of the MSM, they should have a word with their own support.

    1. Bruce says:

      No ‘cabal’ is pushing for the end of the club full stop. What is happening is that most non-Rangers people see that Rangers will most likely be unable to pay the tax bill if it loses its appeal. If HMRC insists on full payment, and for sound reasons most people think it should and expect it will’ then liquidation seems inevitable. Should that happen, most people want Rangers treated by the rules. Most people see all sorts of dire consequences for Scottish football if they aren’t. Most people see that there will be some form of new Rangers unless the Rangers support tears itself apart trying to reclaim what the club, errr…., ‘stands for’.

      ‘Jelly and Ice Cream’ is a fun song that lends itself to mass crowd singalongs. Don’t confuse it for a plan of action. Hell, I don’t even like jelly much.

      Celtic-Minded….love that phrase.

    2. Colin Stephen says:

      Would this “cabal” be acting any worse than David Murray when he said on many occasions how he wanted to wipe us out of existence and who thought he had 10in a row in the bag,his statements saying he would spend a £10’r for every £5 we spent,what where you saying when all this was happening at a time when Celtic where only hours away from folding?You where all celebrating and loving every fkn minute of it,now the shoe is on the other foot you want to start crying and making absurd allegations about senior memebers of Celtic leaking stories,haha,Rangers are self harming themselves enough without needing any help from anyone else and now we are hearing about everyone on these EBT’s including Rangers greatest ever in John Greig and Martin Bain shredding letters,you are destroying your own club yourselves without us doing anything,we will enjoy it just like you all did,i remember the days when you all waved your money in the air and held your 10fingers up shouting how you would win 10in a row,now we know the truth about how you all managed it you don’t like it,you where all happy to go along with it aslong as you won,you never cared about anyone but yourselves and now every fan from every other team in the land are getting abit of payback so deal with it like we did for9seasons.

  43. dryyoureyes says:

    Rangers FC owe HMRC £12 million pounds worth of taxes, not disputed, just unpaid.

    Ranger’s fans are of course victims, but I’m sorry if my eye’s remain dry. Ranger’s fans have enjoyed the David Murray years, and enjoyed doesn’t really get close to it.

    While I feel sorry for Ross and the other fan’s like him, I didn’t hear much from them when their hero david murray put Airdrie into administration over £30,000 stating “business is business”.

    And Ross may not have read that a UEFA compliance officer is coming to Scotland, not at the behest of the SFA but to look at the SFA.

    With the spotlight firmly shining the SFA may have to withdraw from their standard position of unfair advantage to RFC.

    I didn’t hear any Rangers support demanding more honesty and fairness in the Scottish media prior to administration, just lots and lots of “tim paranoia” or smug smiles.

    And this might finally be an opportunity for someone in the media to compile a real unbiased view on the legacy of violence within the Ranger’s support. Not an “old firm issue”, almost wholly an RFC issue.

    1. Marty says:

      Alex Thomson himself says on Twitter that UEFA have told him they have no plans to send a compliance officer to Scotland.

      1. Simon says:

        The disinformation that was doing the rounds came from an NUJ journalist in Donegal who is often in such a rush to get the “I was first” line in he doesn´t bother to check if they stand-up.
        Maybe helps to explain why he can´t get a job in journalism.

      2. Carntyne says:

        Oh right!………..That’s O.K. then.

  44. rab says:

    the reason there are so many nonrangers fans on this site is because they are interested in the future of scottish football not rfc

  45. old codger says:

    Concerns have been raised over the proceeds of the charity match to be played soon between AC Milan and Rangers. now there is to be a n inquiry. Wonder who raised the concerns? hmmn!
    It’s not rocket science Alex.

    1. Simon says:

      That came from posters on the RTC blog (do a lot of work for charity, the HMRC and anyone who´ll stick another knife into Rangers)

      The moral highground on that blog must be quite a large area to fit them all in.

      With the charity, it has to be said that if Rangers go to the wall then so does the Rangers Foundation. The decision by the Rangers Foundation wasn´t welcomed by the RTC bloggers.
      They found a technicality and sent the mass e-mails of complaint that meant the game couldn´t go ahead as billed (now a legends game), effectively looking to turn off an oxygen tank to a fellow club.

      In doing that they were prepared to risk the future of the Rangers Foundation, the same group whose interests they pretended to protect.

      Pathetic and sad !

  46. Simon says:

    Alex,
    Please look at Scottish Premier League rules D 9.3,Scottish Football Association Articles of Association Article 12.1,Rule 2.2.1 and Rule 4.
    It appears that failure to properly disclose all player payments etc is tantamount to failure to properly register a player under the SFA and SPL articles. The reason why this is crucial is that hundreds of Rangers results spanning back to the beginning of the use of EBTs, are potentially forfeit (similar to for instance Celtic V Sion). This would clearly have significant ramifications on the titles and trophies won by Rangers in that period.
    There has been complete inaction and silence on this matter by the governing bodies despite Campbell Ogilvie surely being aware of the issue as he was a director of Rangers during the period of time under investigation – and he’s now SFA MD.
    There has also been a mainstream media whitewash regarding the improper registration of players and I can only hope that for the sake of the credibility, governance and fairness of the Scottish game that the matter will be properly addressed.

    1. Simon says:

      I take it you must be Simon II (for clarity)

      CO to be hung before charged, never mind judged !
      Your getting ahead of yourself.

      Th Righteous Bandwagon on which you ride has similar traits as some Evangalist preachers in the far south, over the pond.

      1. Simon (II) says:

        To Simon (I).
        We should not confuse the use of EBTs in the tax case with the rules concerning the proper registration of players. The apparent facts seem to be clear to all except the mainstream media, SFA and SPL.
        Numerous quotes from Rangers and other sources confirm the use of EBTs, indeed this is what the IR have been investigating for so long. Even if Rangers win the tax case it will merely show a financial coo but fail to address why they were not declared to the SFA/SPL. The EBTs were either not declared in order for Rangers to deliberately (or otherwise) obtain a competitive advantage over other teams or that they were irresponsibly and perhaps incompetently advised about their legitimate use under the SPL/SFA rules. It must be at least one of these two scenarios as the SPL/SFA rules are clear. ALL payments must be declared for a players registration to be VALID and allow participation in a match.
        Clearly if it is the later scenario then CO as Rangers director and company secretary was complicit as he has known about the use of EBTs for a very long time and indeed benefitted from an EBT himself.
        However there has been a failure to act or even acknowledge the issue by the governing bodies. Why is this? Is it out of embarrassment? A cover up? What? The only sources that appear to take the improper registration of players seriously are a few Celtic blogs, which pains me.
        I believe that our governing bodies ought to show that they are impartial and beyond reproach but presently the lack of any investigation into the matter smacks to me of the Jim Farry/Jorge Cadete affair.

      2. Simon (I) says:

        I think you´re trying to discredit/incrimate the governing bodies as a whole.
        To then be able to show to the world that poor Celtic have been the victims and should be allowed a move from Scotland.

        If improper conduct is found to have taken place AFTER due process then action will no doubt be taken.

        Do you think CFC will try and use the situation as a lever in their bid to get a move out of Scotland ?

      3. Simon (II) says:

        To Simon:
        Your reply does you no service.
        We should not confuse the use of EBTs in the tax case with the rules concerning the proper registration of players. The apparent facts seem to be clear.
        Numerous quotes from Rangers and other sources confirm the use of EBTs, indeed this is what the IR have been investigating for so long. Even if Rangers win the tax case it will merely show a financial coo but fail to address why they were not declared to the SFA/SPL. The EBTs were either not declared in order for Rangers to deliberately (or otherwise) obtain a competitive advantage over other teams or that they were irresponsibly and perhaps incompetently advised about their legitimate use under the SPL/SFA rules. It must be at least one of these two scenarios as the SPL and SFA rules are clear:- ALL payments must be declared for a players registration to be VALID and allow participation in a match.
        Clearly if it is the latter scenario then CO as Rangers director and company secretary may have been complicit has must surely have about the use of EBTs for a considetable period; indeed benefitted from an EBT himself.
        However there has so far been a failure to act or even acknowledge the issue by the governing bodies. Why is this?
        The only sources that appear to take the improper registration of players seriously are a few Celtic blogs, which pains me.
        I believe that our governing bodies ought to show that they are impartial and beyond reproach but presently the lack of any investigation into the matter smacks to me of the Jim Farry/Jorge Cadete affair.

      4. Bruce says:

        You lot really squirm when caught out, don’t you?

  47. John C says:

    The more I read, the more I dispair. Imagine if this passion was was aimed at improving our lot as human beings rather than, who is the best human being.
    I feel sorry for the Rangers supporters who accept their responsibilty and would like to move on leave the past behind, try and build a better future.
    My last

    1. Simon says:

      I must recognize the efforts on the Celtic side WRT trying to build a better future and throw off some of the distasteful baggage.

      To become the most fierce defenders of the British Governments revenue collectors is a step in the right direction.

      But if you don´t want to be hypocritical then I suggest your fanbase resist in supporting what in essence was and still is to a degree a drain on the public purse.

  48. old codger says:

    and you say the media in Scotland pay no heed? you cant have it both ways Bruce!

  49. Simon says:

    Bruce @ 9.15am Saturday

    Can´t make a direct reply to where you claim that A.Thomson decided to cover this off his own bat.

    Why don´t you ask Alex why he decided to go with the story.

    You say he´ll have heard about it in the news, you´re right.
    But he heard about a lot more detail from the “usual suspects” on Twitter.
    Tony McKelvie was almost on his knees pleading with him to cover it.
    This after failing with G. Marcotti.

    If you look back to see who initiated the dialogue, it wasn´t Alex Thomson.

    1. Bruce says:

      Since it vexes you so much why don’t you ask him. I don’t really care what got him interested in this. I’m just glad a credible, neutral figure is.

      Oh and Old Codger, you’re not Leggat, are you?

  50. Ready says:

    Oblivious Bruce. Nice word.
    A word which has been ever present in Scottish football.
    I think you will find us Gers fans welcome investigations as long as they are fair. I believe we will be proven to be right and if I am wrong I will welcome a fair punishment. Who wants tainted trophies, certainly no Gers fan I know.
    However, as we we welcome this investigation , lets be thorough Let’s investigate as far back and on a wide a view as possible.
    Let’s take in the alleged : hidden gate receipts, league manipulation rather than backing a team in a major euro final, lies and false tours, sectarianism right up to the board level of clubs, fans singing of all clubs, the burying of truth re club employee working with kids, Glasgow city council connections and dealings, influence past and present of clubs reps on sfa/spl.

    So yes let’s not be welcome this and let’s all not be oblivious anymore. Alex has plenty more of these Scottish football stories to follow up with, let’s hope he does so with the same endeavor shown here.

  51. Jack R says:

    Seemingly, the more that the Rangers fans on here comment, the more they stray from their position given in the article.

    Indeed, the belief that they have done nothing wrong, they’re only in this mess because people are out to get them etc. seems to resurface more and more.

    I am a so-called ‘diddy club’ fan and can assure you that nobody who doesn’t support Rangers feels this way. The lack of contrition emanating from this club and much of their support is embarrassing.

  52. Bruce says:

    School snitches? Oh grow up. Lets not pretend for one second that if the boot was on the other foot Rangers supporters would not be doing exactly the same thing. Many Celtic supporters have for a long time felt the game in Scotland was hooked in favour of Rangers. They were ridiculed as being paranoid. Now there are signs that they were, to some extent at least, correct who can blame them for wanting to see justice done.

    Out of curiosity did you have an opinion on the many Rangers supporters who complained (sorry, lied) to the police about Neil Lennon last year. Fortunately the police saw through them and ignored them.

  53. David says:

    As you can see Alex, the vast majority of posts on here are from Celtic fans. The Rangers fans who have tried to have their say have been lost amongst a deluge of vitriolic ramblings from perdominantly Celtic fans.

    As mentioned, Celtic club despise what Rangers stand for. We are proud to be British, they hate the British, hence the IRA songs. The obsession with all things Rangers is clearly evident in this comments section.

    Rangers as of yet as innocent till proven guilty. If we are found guilty then of course we should pay the price. However some people tend to forget how the concept of justice in Britain works when it doesn’t suit their own agenda.

  54. jackiemcnamaralegend says:

    If Rangers are found guilty and still get away with a slap on the wrist, are still allowed to compete in the SPL and stiff their creditors, could this have future consequences for Celtic?
    What I mean is would future potential creditors of Celtic be reluctant to facilitate a debt with the club? Would they not be too worried that Celtic could rack up a huge debt and “pull a Rangers”? Go bust, stiff those creditors and still be allowed to compete in the top league bar a couple of seasons with a small points deductions?

  55. Norman Keith says:

    I frequently recall times in the late 90’s and early 00’s when Celtic and other team lost to Rangers simply because the Rangers players hadn’t paid their taxes (allegedly). The amount of times Rab Douglas (Celtic Keeper) and others simply let the ball into the back of their net on the basis they weren’t allowed to lay a glove or boot on the ball becuase of Jorg Albertz PAYE status were too numerous to count. All that time I thought I was watchjing football with 11 vs 11 on the parey, infact I was watching a game where the ball was crossed over to the Rangers striker to convert into a goal by a senior accountant. I assume we should now revisit the Battel of Culloden, Waterloo et a; in case the opposing forces had a better Tax break than the other side!

    It is only a game – and the same could alomost be said of clever accountants and lawyers who all play their own “game” of exploiting loopholes and technicalities (have doen for years, indeed centuries)- it doesn’t make it palatable or morally correct but it happens. Sort it out, revise the rules & processes for the future and move on…

    Norman K

    1. Nprman Keith says:

      Please can this one be released from moderation and finally posted?

      I think it was a fairly straightforward comment regards

      NK

  56. barney battles says:

    Alex

    I can’t help thinking you might have bitten off more than you can chew here (and I’m not referring to lamb, succulent or otherwise), but good luck with your endeavours.

    One thing that I find puzzling and which no one else seems to be interested in,though you might be, is why the First Tier Tax Tribunal was held in private.

    The Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal)(Tax Chamber) Rules 2009 prescribe the circumstances in which a tribunal may be held in private and it’s not clear on the face of it which of these would have applied to the Rangers case.

    The Ministry of Justice are unable to say what percentage of tribunals sit in private because they don’t record the information (which I find curious in itself). Looking through the list of judgments though at http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/default.aspxa
    suggests that private hearings are rarer than hen’s teeth.

    One thing’s clear. If the tribunal had been held in public we would all be a lot better informed than we are now.

  57. Del says:

    Your source is Phil Mac Goila Bahn ( excuse the spelling ) a freelance Irish Journalist??? I rest my case thank you.

  58. cerberus says:

    I’ve been following the the various rantings and ravings from both sides of the OF with a degree of amusement. Each side undoubtedly has some element of their support that are fair minded and equally each side undoubtedly has a so called following that is rooted in bigotry and not football. As a supporter of a “diddy team”, I don’t want to see any club fold due to the actions of non-playing business types doing shonky deals, despite the actions of some of the less salubrious sections of their support. But lets face it, both clubs have been bleeding scottish football dry for decades. It has always seemed odd to me that they can have 48000 season ticket holders, at least that number or more unable to get season tickets, a supporter base that claims to come from all corners of Scotland if not the UK and yet when those teams are playing away from home in the SPL, they rarely take more than a couple of thousand travelling support. Couple that with the insane 11-1 voting rule for change in the SPL, and the ridiculous allocation of TV funding then you have a recipe for disaster. Neither club is going to progress well in the European stage unless the home competition is better. If RFC had been competitive in Europe they MIGHT not be in such a bad position, but the only way the home competition is going to get better is if the “diddy teams” get a fairer share of the spoils – which means that OF fans have to get off their backsides and attend away games. Especially those of you who don’t have season tickets for Ibrox or Parkhead – you should be taking every opportunity to support your club. The duopoly must end.

  59. Gary Porter says:

    Ragners fans have to accept the duality of the position they’re in. Until Murray arrived, they had achieved relatively little during a 30 year period (yes , I know about the CWC in 73). After Murray went about his business at Ibrox the club made huge strides in terms of collecting siverware, attracting big name players etc. Murray also ensured that the press were in his pocket – Graeme Spiers has admitted on SSB that there was a total lack of integrity among hacks during this period.
    However, it now looks as though none of it was real, or at least achieved legitimately. If we are really going to clean up Scottish football, there has to be a general acceptance that what happened here was that a club cheated its way to the top and that all the trophies accumulated are meaningless.
    You’re left with a club that actually turns out not to be particularly big after all – e.g. it simply can’t run at a profit or even break even while trying to compete with Celtic. If operating at its true level, it has no chance of attracting the kinds of players it needs to do consistently well in Scotland – moreso in Europe.
    I do believe that ultimately this will be damaging to Scottish football, including Celtic, in the long run. Unless someone is prepared to throw money at Rangers and provide thatkind of artificial stimulation, or can find previously invisible income streams, I think they’re stuffed.

  60. Iain S says:

    The comments on here talk as if Rangers fans were in on everything that has gone on, how is that the case?

    Of course fans were going to enjoy trophies being won, what reason did people with no inside info about David Murray’s business plans have to just guess that he was using money we didn’t have? He was a successful and reputable businessman, who actually got knighted for his business services, while his plans seemed over ambitious fans were happy because they believed it was being done in a sensible manner, so don’t talk as if Rangers fans enjoyed spending money we didn’t have because it’s simply not true.

    Rangers fans are the main victims because they’re the ones who are at risk of being left without a club, every true fan would give up all the trophies won under David Murray in a second it meant the club was secure.

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