Assad could one day face court, says former US war crimes ambassador

We spoke to Stephen Rapp, who served as the US ambassador at large for war crimes issues in the Office of Global criminal justice under President Obama.

Matt Frei: Ambassador Rapp, you heard that searing account of those mass graves and the need for justice. What has to happen for justice to actually occur at the end of the day?

Stephen Rapp: Well it was a great report, by the way. And I was out at Al-Qutayfa today to see the same scene. But what needs to be done for justice is that we need to develop the evidence. A lot of it is already developed, to be frank. We’ve met many of the grave diggers that were involved in digging this grave and others. We have the Caesar photos, we have more than 4 million pages of documents that have been smuggled out to the west that evidence this crime as it was being committed. But now, of course, we have access to all of the facilities where this crime was planned and executed, literally at 100 sites around the country. And so the key thing now is to secure those documents, digitise them, analyse them, and then, of course, also for the sake of the victims and the survivors – people like Mouaz with his uncle – but so many others, is to do everything that we can to develop a programme to find those bodies, those remains and match them with DNA that people can provide saliva samples for. And develop the DNA to identify as many of these deceased as possible. But then, of course, we need a court to try these cases. We’ve got an opportunity now and in a new Syria to build a court led by Syrians, for Syrians. But with international assistance, so it can follow the lessons that we’ve learned in other transitional justice practices and processes – like I was involved in in Rwanda and Sierra Leone.

Matt Frei: We know from the authorities that are now taking over in Syria that they are also looking for justice. Are there conversations taking place between people like you – experts from outside – and the new people running Syria, in order to make sure that the evidence, especially the forensic evidence, is uncovered safely?

Stephen Rapp: Well, you’ve certainly laid out the agenda of my trip. I arrived here today and obviously went to this site and I’ll be going to others. But I’m confident that I’ll have meetings before I leave here this week in which I will certainly convey that message, of the importance of securing these sites and securing these documents to the maximum extent possible, and then working with international partners to make sure that that evidence is preserved and analysed. And then as well, in consultation with various groups, to develop that process. Obviously, it’s up to Syria to decide what it wants to do. But there are ways that that can be done that I think will earn the respect of Syrians. Frankly, in this country, they’ve seen justice so distorted – these courts that were just part of the machinery of death and they want to see true justice. And we’re here and others will be, to help them accomplish that.

Matt Frei: Okay, so we heard earlier from Mouaz that he really wants to see, not just the henchmen brought to justice, but also the people at the very top of the Assad tree, including Bashar al-Assad himself, who, of course, is now taking refuge in Moscow, courtesy of a man, Vladimir Putin, who’s got an ICC arrest warrant against him. How likely is it, do you think, that Bashar al-Assad will ever end up in court?

Stephen Rapp: Well, a whole lot more likely than it was two weeks ago. He’s been overthrown in his own country. He’s in Moscow, in sufferance. Moscow has its own interests in its own war criminal and its own conduct in Ukraine. You know, eventually I think pressure is going to be brought on a variety of countries to bring people to justice. I mean, we never thought we’d get Milosevic. We never thought we’d get Charles Taylor. We never thought we’d get Ratko Mladic, and we were able to do that. The first thing is you develop the evidence that’s sort of unanswerable – and then establish a court which is following proper procedure. And then the expectation on every country in the world is they need to comply if they’re going to get out of sanctions. If they’re not going to be in trouble themselves.