Dispatches

Comments

1. @ Paul Paul said "Do you honestly expect the police to not train to the worst standards possible?" No Paul, I expect you to train to the highest standards possible.

   Posted by Rob on 21/10/2009 01:53:41

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2. During the programme Cmdr. Bob Broadhurst, in response to the incident during the g20 this year where the climate camp peacefully (and illegally) blocked a main highway said this will not be allowed because it's illegal. The climate camp was moved after 7 hours using force. The fuel protest blockade (also illegal) of 2000 took approximately 8 days before normal service was resumed, requiring the government to enact emergency legislation for the use of force. Business leaders estimating the cost of teh blockade from fuel shortages to be around £1bn Where was the attitude expressed by the Cmdr. about the climate camp blockade during the 2000 Fuel Protest blockade?

   Posted by Antonio Lorusso on 21/10/2009 01:38:31

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3. interesting that the programme seemed to infuriate so many police officers as can be seen by the comments. I've seen, over the last 25 years and more, the rioting and thug like behaviour that has been applied as policy, by police forces. To the miners for instance in 84-85 as a matter of policy, all that overtime cash and waving £10 notes in the face of men who had nothing, and were fighting for their very livlihoods, going armed up with horses and dogs and battons against men and women in thin summer clothing, deliberately assaulting them - for nothing. And the policing of protests in the city of london has always been very very violent. Ofcourse when the police entered the blackheath climate camp they got abuse FROM SOME PEOPLE CLEARLY APPALLED AT THE POLICING POLICY OF G20, they were also treated - inspite of all that, with a great deal tolerance, and even a cup of tea! when the police showed up like that at Blackheath it must have both terrifing and infuriating to all those who suspected another G20 style policing policy. as it was they agreed to stay out, and the camp was both superbly organised and wholly peaceful, and my first experience of climate camp - which impressed me thoroughly. How great to be a part of what someone so rudely and inaccurately described as the great unwashed - ignorance is bliss for some i guess. infact the brutal policing of G20 actually drew in more people to become involved. we remember Blair Peach, we remember the many young black men who have died in police custody, we remember the policing of carnival in the 80s, we remember the murder of De Menzes and the lies to cver it up - and we remember that officers who have killed are back on duty and promoted, naturally there's a great deal of suspicion, and if there are those amongst the police who are surprised at this, is it willfull ignorance? Having said all that, I have met police on demonstations who have been professional and even friendly, and that is so nice to see, and oh so necessary - it eases tension, walk in our shoes too.

   Posted by woo on 21/10/2009 00:58:23

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4. People have to remember at these protests there were small extreme groups who wanted to hurt police and smash up the place. People also have to remember that lots of police support various issues the protests. Now as a police officer I have to balance the rights of protests I may agree or not agree with against those who want to hijack it for more extreme reasons. What this program failed to show however was the transistion between police officers in normal uniform being slowly upgraded to various degrees of protective uniform. The program seemed to give the impression that public order trained police are kitted up in full riot gear for protests from the start. This is a rarety with most in normal uniform most of the times. There will be ocassions when the events and intelligence dictate the gear but it is a minority of the time. There have also been times recently when public order trained officers did not have access to there protective gear and recieved injuries such as the night time Notinghill Carnival Riots 2008. So there has to be a balance and the Metropolitian Police got it spot on this Carnival in 2009 with the gradual transition into protective gear as Carnival entered dusk.

   Posted by Fair Policing on 20/10/2009 20:44:59

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5. I never want to be in a country that prohibits protest but I also don't want to be in a country when you can tear down the parts of society that you don't like thru violence. I'm a cop and have had bricks and scaffolding thrown at me by protesters, had a crowd try and drag me into their midst screaming kill him and been attacked whilst trying to detain someone for robbing another protester. Was this in the midst of an all out riot? No, each one was at the start by the people that just hate the society that exists. The sad thing is I have empathy and agree with most of the causes just not the violence whoever it is caused by. There are thousands of peaceful protests in London every year, they don't make the press because they don't turn violent and need robust policing.

   Posted by Mystified on 20/10/2009 19:27:51

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6. Everyone has touched on good points so far but the biggest question is why do police need to turn up to a protest at all. Doesn't the mere fact they NEED to be present justify everything they do? Followed by; if all these protests were so peaceful why do the police ALWAYS HAVE TO attend? ---The police owe criminals a lesser duty of care than they do the ordinary public. --- So if you protest you are not a criminal but you aren't the general public. R_F_PEEL (19 October 2009 at 21:18) Mentioned about minority deaths in police custody since 1972. These things happen, what does it matter where that person was from? Does this mean that white people are worth any less? ROB (19 October 2009 at 22:35) Said that "All police are rotten apples" Well I have friends from school who have joined and most of the cases they see are disgusting characters who spit and curse and do everything that would insight extreme fear or hatred in the average person. To then generalize the police is like generalizing any group of people. They are the reason most of us can walk safe at night in amongst the drunks, who they save from their own drunken stupidety. 6505 (19 October 2009 at 21:00) Is quite right. What happens if they police do leave it? Examples of the 1970's to the 1990's where football hooliganism was at its highest. Would the police be blamed if they were heavy handed on thugs back then? PETER (19 October 2009 at 22:18) The protests in gaza are a lot more dangerous for both sides as firearms are easier to come by and there are a lot more political freedoms and tensions. Yet human rights are omitted until they are proven otherwise. Several psychology studies (conducted by Ph.D students) have shown Most of the persons with strong opinions on these kinds of matters are either so far removed from the matters they read in the papers, such as stabbings, drugs and police brutallity, they possess a deluded view of the reality. Expecting near super-human results; Or they are so involved that they have such an extreme resentment (in terms of criminals) or feel that the police don't do enough, in the case of relatives to assault/murder victims. If we link this back to the protest. The police were out numbered. They are only human and don't typically go through such conflicts. They will be slightly paniced. a typical woman can easily fracture an adult human skull with a brick in one strick. This is a life ending injury and without the equipment they wear the police could easily be killed. -- for the injuries that occur. The only way to restrict a person is to limit their joint movement. If they struggle they can seriously hurt themselves. Thomas Jefferson 3rd US president said that "Freedom must be limited in order to be possessed...should the people run riot and criminal, uncontrolled in all their freedom." A Chinese proverb that is never mentioned enough in every case like this. "Don't judge others unless you've been in exactly the same place under the same circumstance." One of my friends who I train martial arts with "If you were out numbered 20:1 with the real potential to be beaten to death would you let anyone think they can lead the crowd against you?"

   Posted by Spong_monkees on 20/10/2009 00:24:36

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7. Good programme; but I'd just like to note a couple of points that struck me as I watched. In the segment referred to as "riots of the 70's and 80's" I'm sure some of the footage was from Orgreave which is surely understood to have been a premeditated assault by the police. My other point is the passing reference to the role of ACPO in delineating what is and is not acceptable in policing methods. While I concede that ACPO represent an informed and interested group they have no elected or judicial role in defining what is or is not legal or acceptable. In a democracy these are matters for parliament and the law. ACPO appears fond of interpreting the law, it advised against destroying DNA from suspects, who were never tried or found guilty, when the European Court ruled they should, and they have widened the scope of anti-terrorism legislation to make it risky to appear to take a photograph almost anywhere, but especially if there is a police officer in the shot. The police should be instruments of the law, their role is not to interpret the law.

   Posted by bringbackdixon on 19/10/2009 23:33:32

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8. Well said Peter! That's the elephant in the room that everyone's missed. For some property is now more important than people are.

   Posted by Rob on 19/10/2009 23:23:31

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9. Do you honestly expect the police to not train to the worst standards possible? Had we not done this for 7/7 can you imagine the further carnage ( I know someone will mention the De Menzes incident here) How dare the uniform be called in to question. What do you expect them to wear in situations like that, it cannot be predicted that it is peaceful. I'm sure those of you who think it is heavy handed would change your mind if your were being assaulted outside a night club and the police tried to "talk down" your attacker as opposed to adopting government tactics to stop the assault. If you do feel they over react then please join them linked arms on the front line. You can then be abused and assaulted, which the footage did show. I notice how nobody mentions the reaction of the climate camp when the superintendant entered the camp peacefully and was verbally abused when she adopted tactics critics cry out for. In short you can voice your opinions after you've been threatened with guns and knives, had to tackle armed robbers, been stood 2 foot from someone screaming at you and hitting you, when those brave officers ran in to the subway on 7/7 after the bombs exploded with publics best interest at heart. If the police do something wrong then it should be brought in to question. But don't jump on the band wagon until the full facts are known. There was not one mention this evening of officers injured at the G20, biased? As for the climate camp having a "sit in" in the middle of the road, this directly breaks the law, thus making the protest unlawful. Not one person has mentioned on here that the police left them alone for 8 hours before asking them to move on (I'm sure you all heard the PA announcements) yet they refused to do so. I'd say that was more than enough warning. Sure the majority of people are peaceful and want nothing more than a nice protest, unfortunately when they bring idiots who wish to cause problems, the police must adopt the appropriate tactics. I'm sure you all though the use of "kettling" was wrong, but did you not see what happened the last time dispersal was tried. In short no matter what the police did during that event, some negative documentary would of been made. The police did a sterling job on that day and yes there was an unfortunate tragedy but that officer is in the process of being dealt with. Sat behind desks and screens you will never experience what they go through, until you do, you cannot give an educated opinion on the matter. You will never see what they do. You won't put your lives on the line for the same people who are berating them on message boards such as this. Before you query them, think if you're being attacked who will you call? Who will you ask for urgently when you need something? These officers come in to work every day not knowing if they're going home. Remember this before you complain. They do not know if they're going to attend a terror incident, a domestic, a fatal crash, a murder or included, a public order situation. Before you judge put yourself in their position. Then think twice before you write...

   Posted by Paul on 19/10/2009 22:46:11

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10. Do you honestly expect the police to not train to the worst standards possible? Had we not done this for 7/7 can you imagine the further carnage ( I know someone will mention the De Menzes incident here) How dare the uniform be called in to question. What do you expect them to wear in situations like that, it cannot be predicted that it is peaceful. I'm sure those of you who think it is heavy handed would change your mind if your were being assaulted outside a night club and the police tried to "talk down" your attacker as opposed to adopting government tactics to stop the assault. If you do feel they over react then please join them linked arms on the front line. You can then be abused and assaulted, which the footage did show. I notice how nobody mentions the reaction of the climate camp when the superintendant entered the camp peacefully and was verbally abused when she adopted tactics critics cry out for. In short you can voice your opinions after you've been threatened with guns and knives, had to tackle armed robbers, been stood 2 foot from someone screaming at you and hitting you, when those brave officers ran in to the subway on 7/7 after the bombs exploded with publics best interest at heart. If the police do something wrong then it should be brought in to question. But don't jump on the band wagon until the full facts are known. There was not one mention this evening of officers injured at the G20, biased? As for the climate camp having a "sit in" in the middle of the road, this directly breaks the law, thus making the protest unlawful. Not one person has mentioned on here that the police left them alone for 8 hours before asking them to move on (I'm sure you all heard the PA announcements) yet they refused to do so. I'd say that was more than enough warning. Sure the majority of people are peaceful and want nothing more than a nice protest, unfortunately when they bring idiots who wish to cause problems, the police must adopt the appropriate tactics. I'm sure you all though the use of "kettling" was wrong, but did you not see what happened the last time dispersal was tried. In short no matter what the police did during that event, some negative documentary would of been made. The police did a sterling job on that day and yes there was an unfortunate tragedy but that officer is in the process of being dealt with. Sat behind desks and screens you will never experience what they go through, until you do, you cannot give an educated opinion on the matter. You will never see what they do. You won't put your lives on the line for the same people who are berating them on message boards such as this. Before you query them, think if you're being attacked who will you call? Who will you ask for urgently when you need something? These officers come in to work every day not knowing if they're going home. Remember this before you complain. They do not know if they're going to attend a terror incident, a domestic, a fatal crash, a murder or included, a public order situation. Before you judge put yourself in their position. Then think twice before you write...

    Posted by Paul on 19/10/2009 22:43:09

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11. Once again the Police are portrayed as the bad guys ! I think the scene with the Police officers been taunted and shouted at while they peacefully attended the climate change site said it all, this is the abuse the police are getting on the front line, and in the riot/peaceful protest situations, the films don't show this, except when the crowd are chanting this 'this is not a riot' The Police are given protection, having learnt from previous riot situations the sorts of injuries they can sustain and lets not forget they are not the ones choosing to be there, if these groups formed in smaller productive groups, without causing mass disruption I am sure then they would still get across their cause while still allowing people to go about their daily business with minimum disruption. I think the Police should get more praise for the difficult and demanding role they carry perform on a daily basis. And yes let get some footage of what it's like from the Police prospective, lets see how awful the Police really are and how lovely,polite and respectful the protesters are ! Mmmm would make interesting viewing I think, might change some of these office bound policy makers minds when they see what some of the protesters are really like.

    Posted by Goody on 19/10/2009 22:25:05

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12. I was at a demo in February against the Israeli attack on Gaza and was kettled for five hours. It occured to me at the time that the coppers were really interested in nabbing the people who broke a couple of shop windows and were willing to keep hundreds of innocent men women and children imprisoned for hours in sub-zero temperatures to get their man (or woman). In this country property is far more important than people, a point not mentioned in the programme.

    Posted by Peter on 19/10/2009 22:18:44

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13. As a Special Constable trained for PSU duties I watched the programme with interest, but reflect that it had a bias towards level 2 PSU when ordinarily for public order situations Level 3 PSU tactics (which are akin to ordinary every day policing) are ALWAYS used first so as not to inflame or provoke disorder. The programme failed to reflect this and made it seem as if only level 2 tactics are every used, which is totally untrue. I have policed quite a few public order situations and only once were level 2 PSU officer ever deployed and that was only when level 3 officers were overwhelmed and in danger from an unruly and disordered crowd. In the vast majority of public order type situations the public do not see level 2 officers as they are kept out of the way and are only deployed once the crowd itself has become violent to level 3 officers who need protecting and backing up. The programme did not reflect this reality and was typically edited for controversy, media hype and distortion of a difficult subject.

    Posted by Malcolm on 19/10/2009 22:17:52

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14. A very interesting programme, I do feel certain people were looking in from a different world, they talked about Police dealing with protests for a new age, but as a resident of London I see demo's in town almost every week and the Police seem to deal with them well enough, I was also in the city on the day of the G20 and was disgusted with the behaviour and arrogance of the protesters who seemed to think their human rights and rights to protest were far more important than people trying to go about there lawful business, I would also like to comment on numerous collegues who had to make long detours around Bishopsgate because of the peaceful!! sitdown process.This program went over old ground basically saying the protestors can do what they want and the minute Police act it is brutality.I felt the best part of the program was seeing the arrogant climate camp protesters shouting and acting aggressively towards the superintendant,who had shown no hostility towards them, these people believe they are alaw unto themselves and are so warped in there thinking they can see no other point of view than there own and unfortunatley the media have jumped on the bandwagon, I just wait for the next G20 style protest and hope the Police stand back let everyone get on with it and when it all goes wrong lets see who gets the blame then. Also you held up the PNSI as an example, yes they were doing well but I would love to see Channel 4,the Guardian whine when water cannon and baton rounds are fired in London, the reason PNSI keep a lid is because the stone throwers know they are lible to be hit by either water cannon or a baton round. I would like to point out that you say what officers wear can cause a crowd to become hostile, I think if you look at the G20 and most other protests the Police always start off wearing beat duty uniform, but hey why let the facts get in the way of a good story. Anyway like I say as a council tax payer in London, I have yet to find a friend or collegue who thinks the MET were heavey handed at G20, most think they should have gone further.

    Posted by James on 19/10/2009 22:07:40

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15. Just watched & thought it was really well put together... it showed how the Met Police are basically all about CAUSING a riot (I knew that already!) I hope that times are changing for the better, but I'd have to see it to believe it... I've always been treated so badly by the Met & I'm just a peaceful protester!

    Posted by Anti Fascist on 19/10/2009 22:04:30

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16. Absolutely wonderful programme, shows yet more examples of the evil that resides in the police force. Bob Broadhurst is a very smug man, I particularly enjoyed the mention about the police's term for 'Kettling', his smug smile showed how they get around such things with PC terms. I lost faith in the police force some years ago and programmes like this only strengthen our lack of faith in our government and it's private army the police.

    Posted by Alan Gaunt on 19/10/2009 21:49:07

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17. A very good and balanced programme. I happen to be a retired Police officer from the Met (4yrs ago)and went through this process of riot (level 2) training and yes it does train one to be defensive and aggressive. Even within the training some of the students went over the top with their collegues resulting in assaults and injuries. The police have lost the art of policing peaceful demostrations and feel (for whatever reason) that those demonstrating are some type of beligerant irritation. If you train any dog to fight -previosly of peaceful despossesion then it will fight - similar to police training.I happen to agree with the climate change demonstators as I am self employed now within the energy industry. They have the right to voice their opinions as politicians waffle around the problem and say much but do nothing. The police for their part will alienate themselves further from the public they are supposed to serve until they resemble a rump similar to that of some historic Eastern European policing culture. I find some of the policing at demostrations as being brutish and thuggish - time to change or lose support.

    Posted by Terry on 19/10/2009 21:25:18

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18. The Great British Bobby Bashers strike again! Its a national obsession and its boring.

    Posted by Annie on 19/10/2009 21:22:54

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19. Well done CH 4, with the met bending over backwards to give you all access to all aspects of training and planning you still manage to ignore and go ahead with your one sided biased opinion, what a waiste of time (apart from the protestors agruing amongst themselves). Well done CH 4 for yet more rubbish.

    Posted by umin on 19/10/2009 21:18:56

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20. This has to be one of the most unbalanced subversive bits of "reporting" C4 has ever put out, an hour of complete attack on the Police within the UK. Roger Graef, who has more than enough sinister connections, can tick this off as a job well done in this effort to have a go at the establishment in this country, no analysis of the training given to these groups of protesters at all, very balanced. "Southpark" has more integrity than this rubbish....

    Posted by GM Glasgow on 19/10/2009 21:13:25

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21. Yet another biased view of Policing and what motivates Police Officers - Perhaps one of your reporters would like to stand in front of a baying crowd of "peacefully" protesting supporters to experience what it really feels like !And how did Police provoke the so called "peaceful " protestors to break into the Banks?

    Posted by Jacqui Bentley on 19/10/2009 21:05:55

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22. Whilst explaining to my mother that pragmatic policing would be a better outcome- she said its difficult for the police to reamin peaceful when having molotov cocktails thrown at them- she failed to spot the difference between the irish troubles and the police training exercises filmed at the end of the show after the piece on climate change at blackheath - I wonder how many other viewers could have made the same error? Maybe next time have a footer with "police training" cheers

    Posted by tom on 19/10/2009 21:05:16

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23. If we are all for Human rights/Health and safety etc which are all European policy for integrating with europe I wonder if we will adopt European Policing tactics? Water cannon etc. Has anyone thought about the options that will give the Police? Might make the great unwashed smell a bit better ..............

    Posted by ian on 19/10/2009 21:02:58

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