'People want to fly. You cannot restrict flying.'
Updated on 18 October 2006
Jon Snow chairs last night's climate change debate.
In the wake of an Oxford University report which said the government would not meet its targets on carbon dioxide emissions unless it takes action to curb air travel, Jon Snow was joined in the studio by two guests - Tom Burke, environmental policy adviser to Rio Tinto and visiting professor at Imperial College London; and Paul Charles, director of corporate communications for Virgin Atlantic.
Jon Snow: In a sense [the report] doesn't tell you anything you didn't know but on the other hand, the big question is how the airlines are going to react if somebody starts restricting the growth of airports and starts taxing you on your fuel?
Paul Charles: The aviation industry does contribute to global warming, let's face that fact first of all. Things have gone worse in the last few years and now it's time for the aviation industry to put its house in order and do something about it. Taxing people is not the answer. We've seen the introduction of the air passenger duty in recent years, it's also been increased and it hasn't stopped this growth. The real answer lies in dealing with the source of those Co2 emissions, tackling them at source, trying to stamp out as many of them as you can and looking at ways we operate to make us become more efficient.
Jon Snow: Tom Burke, taxing doesn't work?
Tom Burke: Taxing is part of the solution but it's a long way from being all of the solution. It's one of the things I'll suspect we'll have to use along with including the emissions from aircrafts in the Emissions Trading Scheme.
Jon Snow: But Paul Charles's point that they've already tried a limited tax regime and it's had absolutely no effect whatsoever.
Tom Burke: Well, precisely because it's limited.
Jon Snow: You mean massive tax?
Tom Burke: I think you're going to need very significant taxes...
Jon Snow: Like what?
Tom Burke: I can't give you a number on it. It depends on the amount of growth and the amount of capacity you're trying to take out. But you're also going to have to go for technological breakthroughs and that's what's been very good in a way about the approach Virgin have taken - start saying, 'look, we really need to break through'. One thing that's absolutely clear is the aviation industry is going to have to play its part in addressing this problem. Up until now, it hasn't really done so. And I commend Virgin for starting but it is only really the beginning.
Jon Snow: Well that is why both passengers and airlines presumably need compulsion from government?
Paul Charles: I don't think it is. I think a voluntary move such as we've outlined in recent weeks - whether it's been Richard's commitment to put money into renewable energy, or whether it is a series of initiatives that actually make flying more efficient so you're burning less fuel and churning out fewer carbon emissions - is the real answer. It's a series of measures which are voluntary.
Actually putting taxes on air fares is not a vote winner with the public. And it certainly isn't a vote winner with politicians. It's the wrong way forward.
Contd.
Jon Snow: What is very curious is that it is one of these very rare things that the passenger doesn't have to pay anything like the real price of flying. Why not force a charging regime that actually deals realistically with the true cost of flying?
Tom Burke: The airline industry has always had a privileged position in relation to fuel tax and I think that's now clearly a position that's under threat because of the need to address global warming. But what the environment minister said this morning is absolutely clear, we've got to take carbon out of the energy system by about 2050.
Jon Snow: But the problem is though we are doing the damage now. These measures that both you and Paul Charles have spelt out are measures that won't yield for five, 10, 15 years. Surely, money has to be charged now to offset that?
Tom Burke: No, I think we should put aviation in perspective. It's not the most urgent of the issues we need to address in relation to climate change. It's important and it will grow for the reasons outlined in the report. It will grow very rapidly. But the real problems we have to address now - first of all getting electricity generation so that it's carbon neutral and then look at road transport. So I think it would be wrong to pick on aviation as the most obvious target, the thing that would get you your most bang for your buck.
Paul Charles: I think that's right. It's power stations and cars that are the worst contributors here. But there are things that we can do in the next two or three years to change the situation. The way that pilots are allowed to descend before landing is one of them. If they can fly their planes more efficiently then you burn less fuel. If airports allowed tugging so your plane is towed towards the runway rather than the engines having to turn and burn more fuel that would be a solution. We're now talking to Gatwick and to Heathrow and Los Angeles airports about doing these sorts of things.
Jon Snow: Surely one of the most brilliant and most urgent, cheapest and easily delivered things to do would be to stop airport expansion right now?
Paul Charles: People want to fly. You cannot restrict flying. Passengers are voting with their feet. We want to fly to more destinations, we want to fly more often. That shouldn't be restricted.
Jon Snow: That's a supply and demand thing. If they want to fly they'll have to pay for it. And the only way you'll be able to do it is by paying more to fly from the limited amount of slots that exist now. Why should they be given the option to continue to defoliate the globe?
Paul Charles: Well what's clear is that passengers will make a choice and their choice is that want to fly more often. As we heard before they're taking two or three trips a year, business trips are becoming more common place. That shouldn't be taxed, that shouldn't be restricted. That is a matter of choice in a free economy.
Contd.
Jon Snow: Tom Burke, the temptation given the coal mining in China which is completely out of control in terms of carbon emissions - people will be tempted to say 'look, whatever we do China's single-handedly destroying the globe anyway'.
Tom Burke: Well, China's not destroying the globe single handedly. Quite frankly, that's wrong. China is playing its part and will play a bigger part as its economy goes forward. We're not exactly going to do ourselves a favour by saying the Chinese economy should grind to a halt. Anybody under 30 is relying on the success of the Chinese economy to pay their pensions, so that isn't the option.
We can do something about the coal if we're prepared to spend the money. What's difficult about this problem and aviation is the Government's got half a policy. It's got a policy to provide the airports but not a policy to control the emissions. It needs a full policy.
Jon Snow: Paul Charles. Do you think Richard Branson would enter a pledge that emissions would go down in the foreseeable future and even set a target and a date?
Paul Charles: Oh yes, and I think Richard has made it very clear in the last two weeks that actually he would like to see a 25 per cent cut in carbon emissions in the aviation industry over the next two years.
Jon Snow: Is that something Virgin is going to deliver?
Paul Charles: Absolutely, it's possible, we'll stick to it, we're working with most of the industry on it. And we will create some real changes over the next two years.
Related links
17 Oct 2006: Report calls for new air tax
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