An interview with Grayson Perry

By Benjie Goodhart

Grayson Perry is no stranger to controversy. When he won the Turner Prize just over a year ago, many people were scandalised both inside and outside the art world. Those of a less-artistic mien were shocked because Perry, a transvestite, picked up the award dressed as Claire, his young female alter ego. Meanwhile, many of the artistic establishment were up in arms because he was – horror of horrors – a potter. One day, Perry may feel ready to reveal to the world what motivations and experiences pushed him towards the mysterious, shameful twilight world so few men are prepared to acknowledge. In the meantime, it's his transvestism, not his pottery, that we're here to discuss; his Channel 4 programme, Why Men Wear Frocks, is a witty yet frank and revealing look at what drives the compulsion many men feel to wear women's clothing.

Despite Perry's own admirable openness on the subject, transvestism is a highly personal and often closely guarded aspect of many practitioners' lives. Why did Perry decide to make a documentary on such an emotionally sensitive and private subject?

'I'd never seen a programme that reflected my experiences or my interpretation of being a tranny. It's always slightly freak show-ish. And I hope that my programme isn't like that. There's still the basic misconceptions about trannies, that they're gay or freaks or whatever. And there probably are gays, and freaks, among trannies, but no more than any other section of the male population.'

Perry himself is happily married, to Philippa, and they have a daughter, Flo, who is 12.

'Philippa is completely cool about [his transvestism]. She's known about it since before we even went out together. She said to some reporter the other day, when he asked this question, that as obsessions go, it's not as bad as football.'

As for Flo.

'I would answer any questions she asked about it, absolutely. But she's never really asked them, because it's always just been in the air – she's seen me getting ready, she's read things about me, she's seen me talking about it to other people. I think she knows all she wants to about it.'

And she's not teased about it at school?

'No – she goes to cool school!'

Perry himself started cross-dressing at the age of 12 or 13.

'As soon as the idea occurred to me, I borrowed a couple of dresses off my sister. I tried them on and they did the business.'

Which was?

'Initially, of course, when you're that age, everything is sexual. Going on the bus is sexual when you're 12. Any sexuality that there is to be gleaned from an experience will headline it.'

'As one gets older as a tranny, that kind of headline becomes less significant. There's definitely a strong element that it's a turn-on, it's a fetish. But it's also about giving oneself permission to behave in a certain way.'

Essentially, Perry argues, many transvestites are brought up believing that certain more sensitive emotions are non-male. They are socialised into suppressing these emotions, but find that they still need an outlet. That is where the dressing up plays a role.

'At some point in their upbringing, trannies banished certain feelings and behaviour from the kingdom of their masculinity. What made them do that could be one of a number of things. It could be from their fathers, it could be from their peer groups or society, or a mixture of all three. They can only visit those feelings when they dress up as a woman. It's a way of preserving a part of ourselves that we split off.'

So it's something that has its roots in childhood development?

'I think it's very multi-determined. But most trannies, I think, are pretty-well hard-wired by the time they reach puberty. A lot of them will say that they had a perfectly happy childhood. But I would say that we go through childhood collecting tokens, and you can get these tokens from various things: Abusive parents or boarding school, or very strong male or female role models. And you collect the tokens, and if you've enough, you cash them in and you're a tranny.'

Perry's own tokens probably started to accumulate after his father left when he was just a boy. His mother married the milkman, whom he describes as a bully. When they discovered his transvestism, his family was less than accepting. All the more credit, then, for being so public and forthright about his transvestism now. Is there a campaigning element to his openness?

'I've always said over the last few years that, for me, dressing up when I go out is a political act. I'm showing the extremes really. I'm not expecting everyone to dress up like me, because I adopt quite an extreme style [reference to his dressing up as a young girl]. But I'm kind of saying that if I can do this, it's okay to do what you want to do.'

So dressing up as Claire, in a short lilac dress with bows on it, to receive the Turner Prize, was purely political?

'Oh God, no, I enjoy it. It's sort of related to a sex fantasy I used to have, where I would think, as an artist, what was the most potentially humiliating situation I could put myself in as a tranny. And I used to have this fantasy years ago of collecting the Turner Prize dressed as a little girl. So be careful what you wish for!'

In Why Men Wear Frocks, Perry doesn't appear as Claire, instead adopting the regalia of an older, more conservatively-dressed woman.

'Yeah, I consciously toned it down. I thought it would become a distraction otherwise. I thought it would be good if I looked more representative of the people who I was talking to, and talking about. I do dress up as a grown-up woman sometimes. Until fairly recently, that was my normal look. In fact, I had a lot of flack from trannies when I got the Turner Prize. I was 'the wrong kind of weirdo'. So I toned it down deliberately for the programme.'

As well as being a transvestite, Perry is passionate about motorbikes. For the film, he attends to a bikers' event, to try and work out whether some of the same thrills can be delivered by motorcycling. Both involve dressing up, adopting a different persona, and experiencing excitement and adrenaline. But the worlds are also very obviously different. Did Perry tell the collection of tough-looking bikers he interviewed about his transvestism?

'Oh yeah, people are cool. I think a lot of the fear people have of prejudice is because of their own bad people skills. If you go up to anybody and smile and say hello and give good eye contact, most people in this country are pretty tolerant, and enjoy the experience, and you just add to their day – 'Ooh, I've seen a tranny today'. It's only the ones who skulk and expect to be attacked who get the bad situations.'

As he very well knows.

'When I was younger, and didn't handle it as well, and was less confident, I had a few abusive situations. I never got physically attacked, though.'

Interestingly, the most common source of unpleasantness arrives from an unexpected quarter.

'The absolute enemy of trannies is a gaggle of 14-year-old schoolgirls. In a group they will have no inhibitions about saying what they think. When we were doing the last day of filming, we were shooting in Chapel Market, and these two girls came up to me and said 'You're disgusting, you're insulting to women'. They're so conservative at that age.'

Yet attitudes are improving, particularly among the young. Perry was especially impressed with a group of pupils from an inner city school who he interviewed while filming.

'They were great. Very articulate, and very funny as well.'

As attitudes change, so transvestites will begin to feel more relaxed an accepted. But, when that happens, will it lose something of its illicit thrill?

'It would lose the adrenaline rush, that's for sure. But I think transvestism is a symptom of sexism and lack of tolerance. If the intolerance disappears, and there wasn't this sexism that insisted that men behave in a certain 'male' way, then transvestism would dry up, to an extent. It would still be around, but it would be a lot less common, I think. It goes hand-in-hand with prejudice, bigotry and divisiveness. You'd still have the existing trannies, of course. My transvestism is based in the emotional archaeology of my childhood. It's like I'm wedded sexually and socially to a previous generation.'

Who would Grayson Perry like to resemble in his female incarnation?

'If I really had to look like one woman, I think I'd choose Gwyneth Paltrow. Or Lisa Kudrow out of Friends. I like that kind of willowy horse-woman.'

So his figure is important to him?

'One of the reasons I cycle is so I can still wear all my clothes [he's a size 14, if it's not un-gallant to mention it]. If I developed a beer belly, it could be disastrous on the wardrobe!'

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