The Qur’an
Interview with Antony Thomas
The presenter, producer and director of The Qur’an answers questions about making and meaning of this powerful documentary
Your tone throughout the film is very sympathetic to the Qur’an. Are you attracted to Islam as a religion or are you more interested in the politics of Muslim communities and states?
Yes. To both questions. When I was just 19, I paid my first visit to the mosque at Woking, and acquired my very first copy of the Qur’an and as much literature as I could lay my hands on. I never thought seriously of converting to Islam but always retained a strong interest, based on my respect for the values of inclusiveness and tolerance that seemed to be at the heart of the Qur’anic message.
This interest deepened in the 1970s, when I had opportunities to travel extensively throughout the Arab world. But towards the end of that decade I started to become increasingly worried about the emergence of a form of Islam that seemed far removed from the values I had respected so much as a young man.
It was then that I felt compelled to try to understand why those changes were taking place, and this, of course, took me into political areas.
Central to the film are the contradictory claims attributed to the Qur’an – it marginalises women/respects women, promotes peace/advocates violence, is merciful/is punitive and so on. In what ways are Muslims different from people in any religion who seek out verses in the texts that reflect their own perspectives and serve their own interests?
There are no differences. Among people of all faiths there are those who tend to read their sacred texts selectively – highly selectively.
The film gives a vivid picture of the diversity of Muslim customs and beliefs set against a growing attempt to impose a single orthodoxy across the Muslim world. Did your film set out to show this diversity and were you free to film what you wanted, where you wanted?
Yes. I became very concerned to show this diversity and to give a voice to those who adhere to a form of Islam which Dr Tim Winter describes so eloquently in the programme as ‘mainstream, classical, inclusive Islam of the kind most Muslims know and are familiar with and love’. And that’s something we must never lose sight of. After all my experiences on this programme, I firmly believe that the people Tim is describing are still in the majority. Unfortunately, the radicals and extremists are capable of making much more noise.
Turning to your second point, in all the territories where we actually filmed, we were given complete freedom of access, with only one exception. We were not permitted to film in the inner shrine at Mashhad, where the body of Imam al-Reza rests. But this was understandable. No film units – Muslim or non-Muslim – have been permitted to work there.
I think I should also add that some of questions I threw at very senior figures were extremely challenging (one might even say ‘aggressive’) but co-operation was never withdrawn and no offence was taken.
Do you see Islamic fundamentalism as a way of harking back to a purer, more authentic version of the Qur’an, or as a modern, political phenomenon which is using the text as an instrument to impose a new orthodoxy and establish political power?
Fundamentalists like to claim that they are reverting to a purer, more authentic form of the faith, but you have to understand that fundamentalism – whether it’s Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever – is a modern phenomenon, sweeping through all the great faiths. There really are no historical precedents. Martin Luther didn’t believe in the literal truth of the Bible, and the same can be said in the context of the Qur’an.
The great scholars of the early Islamic period – al-Tabari, al-Bukhari and others – took positions that would have had them condemned as apostates by today’s fundamentalists.
How easy was it to find interviewees who were prepared to speak out against their own religious leaders? Were the dissidents who participated in the film, such as Ghada Shabander in Egypt, putting themselves in any danger by speaking to you on the record?
I don’t think I’m giving away secrets when I say that Ghada’s daughter (whom I never met) begged her mother not to give the interview, but I can’t say whether this was out of fear of the consequences, or fear that a Western interviewer might trivialise Ghada’s position. We should be aware, though, that someone of the status of Dr Souad Saleh, the first woman dean of Al-Azhar University (who also appears in the programme) has faced death threats for daring to suggest that the Qur’an respects men and women equally.
The portrait of Egypt was fascinating in illuminating the double lives of young women who wear veils in the street and go clubbing at night or who choose to wear the hijab and hold down demanding and responsible jobs. Are they simply making life liveable for themselves or have the fundamentalists won over the younger generation?
It’s a complex situation. Many young women who wear the full niqab have, in a real sense, ‘given in’ to the fundamentalists. From my perspective, it’s a tragedy to find someone like Hannan Kemal, who has sacrificed so much, including a thriving legal practice, to live a life of veiled seclusion. But then you meet someone like Lena Fawzy, who wears her hijab as a badge of honour, and is as far away as one could possibly be from any fundamentalist thinking.
Also, you have to acknowledge that many of the young people you’ll see in the Cairo street scenes, are wearing veils as fashion statements – beautiful silks in vivid colours that complement the rest of their attire. You’ll even find the veil worn with T-shirts and spangled jeans by a young kid, entwined with her boyfriend in a public place.
Although it doesn’t seem to be much of a prospect at the moment, do you think a resolution of the Israel/Palestine conflict would loosen the hold of a narrow, inflexible version of Islam on Muslims in the region and beyond?
Definitely. It would transform the relationship between the Muslim World and the West.
How did making this documentary affect your views on Islam and the Qur’an?
My views on the Qur’an haven’t changed, but as a result of many months of research and filming, I have become far more optimistic. The ‘mainstream, classical, inclusive Islam of the kind most Muslims know and love’ is alive and well, in spite of all the pressures, all the indignities and the crass errors of Western foreign policy.
Biography
Filmmaker Antony Thomas was born in Calcutta and taken to South Africa when he was six years old. He moved to England in 1967, where he has written, directed and produced 40 major documentaries and dramas. He is also the author of a highly acclaimed biography, Rhodes, the Race for Africa.
Many of Antony Thomas’s powerful, thought-provoking and influential programmes, including the series on obesity, FAT (1998) and the controversial drama, Death of a Princess,have won prestigious prizes as well as huge audiences. His Channel 4 documentary, The Tank Man, was invited for special screenings at the United States Congress and at Amnesty International’s 2007 Annual General Meeting in the USA.
Antony Thomas has made many programmes that explore religious orthodoxy, including Flesh and the Devil, a film about celibacy in the Catholic church, shown on Channel 4 in 2004, and Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done (1987), a two-part ITV documentary on the Christian Right in the United States.
