Chat Ed : Welcome to this evening's webchat with Andrew Gilligan from tonight’s 'Dispatches: Kidnap and Torture American Style. As Tony Blair unveils his tough new line on deporting foreign terror subjects following the July bombings, journalist Andrew Gilligan investigates whether these new rules will mean suspects, who have never been found guilty by a jury, will be delivered into the hands of torturers.
Andrew Gilligan : Hi and welcome to my webchat, throw your questions at me!
seanhealy : Are we witnessing a long-term change in American foreign policy? or do you believe that things will go back to normal after the present administration is out of the Whitehouse?
Glenn : Andrew - just saw the show. Excellent job. In fact, excellent series.
Andrew Gilligan : Extraordinary rendition actually did exist before Bush, it did exist under Clinton and I think, in some form, it will continue after Bush leaves. The US goes through these spasms sometimes then it dies away and Americans feel ashamed of what they have done and I think this might be one of those. But it will never completely die
xpuk : Very disturbing. I was all for the 90 days issue but this has made me think again.
Drverbeeg : Given 24 hours of torture I'm sure we'd all admit to shooting JFK. The evidence from torture is constantly proven to be worthless.
pakesh : Hi Andrew, glad you're still fighting! What do you think that we, the public should be doing, and can do to show our disgust at these practices?
Andrew Gilligan : I think the key thing for people in Britain is to carry on making sure that this country has no part in this barbarism. As we mentioned in the programme, British airports and military bases are being used as staging posts for the controlled aircraft which fly the victims around, so those who disagree with this should put pressure on the British government to stop it.
downesdesign : Have you had any luck getting this documentary (or the series) broadcast in America?
Emerald Sage : what do you think the average Americans reaction would be if they knew exactly what there government was doing in this kidnap torture policy you reported on in tonight’s program
Andrew Gilligan : I don't know. I know other European countries have bought it, not sure about the U.S. though. The real concern in Congress is being felt. America does go through these spasms of extreme behaviour but it is capable of correcting itself, as we saw in the 1950s. The reaction is starting to kick in in the U.S. now. The average American probably thinks it's a good thing at the moment as they think these people are terrorists and they think it will keep evil at bay. But some are catching on and know it's not only morally wrong but have also realised that it fuels the hatred that they are trying to keep in check.
pmac : What pressure can we put on the government if they deny that this even happens?
James2 : Andrew do you have a website or lobby group against the British Government to voice concerns?
xpuk : so Andrew: As previously asked. What course of action can we take that will be effective ?
Juliet : What can we do to help change this practice, and support those affected?
geoff : amnesty has some great information all about this and it’s becoming a big issue
Andrew Gilligan : The pressure can be the most traditional kind - there is a cross-party parliamentary group just starting up this week and Menzies Campbell MP, Chris Mullin MP and Andrew Tyrie MP are all involved - you should write to them and your own MP. The other important thing is information - if anyone knows anything about what is going on and if anyone can break through the British government's wall on this, then speak out. The British government, at the moment, is denying that it takes any part in the policy – but its denials do not seem credible.
Ilian : Liberal media people (such as yourself) seem to start with the assumption, torture is always wrong, do you not think that many maybe a majority of British people disagree?
Andrew Gilligan : Torture is always wrong.
james232 : torture is always wrong
Nick : Torture is ALWAYS wrong
Andrew Gilligan : And it's against the law of this country and all other civilised countries. It's wrong, not just because it's the exact opposite of the values we claim to uphold but because it does not work. You don't get good information from torturing people. They will tell you anything to make the pain go away. And it just hands a massive amount of propaganda to our enemies.
Matty : absolutely right
Taher : To some extent but why do it if it was useless
Andrew Gilligan : I think the level of fear and panic among governments about terrorism should not be underestimated. There are plenty of people who side with the U.S. government who figure they'll take a chance but the records of results of interrogation and torture show that you cannot engage yourself in a form of terrorism to get what you want.
ali : andrew do your think your experience in the kelly affair has in any way changed your outlook on our government and on governments in general?
Andrew Gilligan : It confirmed what I'd always suspected - that governments can be unscrupulous and untruthful and ruthless.
hubaloo : what do u say when people - inevitably - say ur just a guy with a grudge who wants to bash the British government?
Andrew Gilligan : It is an important subject and it shouldn't be reduced to a level of personal grudges and I don't believe it has been.
john t : what is your view of the official secrets act being used to suppress further publication of the memos between the white house and no.10?
Andrew Gilligan : I think it confirms far better than anything else could, that there is something in this. I myself feel sceptical that the U.S. would order an attack on the headquarters of Al Jazeera - a friendly country where the U.S. headquarters for the Iraq war was based. But, I'm quite certain that they would, indeed have, bombed Al Jazeera offices elsewhere. During the Afghanistan war the Al Jazeera bureau in Kabul was bombed by the Americans and during the Iraq war Al Jazeera's Baghdad bureau was bombed by the U.S. - they claimed it was an accident at the time, but I never believed that and I think this memo proves it was not an accident.
ICE : That’s a good answer Andrew. That is correct.
Mark P : what are your thoughts about the Mirror memo and subsequent injunction? what's the impact on what's left of impartial journalism?
Andrew Gilligan : Are you suggesting, Mark, that it's a betrayal of impartial journalism to publish this memo or write about it? Because if so, I disagree. The purpose of journalism should be to bring to public attention facts, which have not been known before - and this story seems to me to be doing exactly that. It's a good day for journalism.
PPatel : Are there any impartial journalists? It seems that the US has put everyone on one sire or the other - no middle ground. That’s not freedom!
jonangus : What in international law would be the procedure whereby Bush & Blair might be brought to book? Are they not effectively above the law?
PPatel : Are the US really above any law?
Mark P : No, the exact opposite: gagging journalism by the use of injunction
Andrew Gilligan : Bush said quite early on 'If you're not with us, you're against us'. That does seem to imply that no one is allowed to be impartial. Impartially, in that context, would be construed as hostility. In the American media particularly, for a couple of years after 9/11, there was a source of cheerleading for the administration's policies - but I think that's dying away now as the failure of those policies becomes clearer. Bush and Blair aren't above the law exactly but they can only be held to account by their electorate.
Ilian : But the main alternative would do nothing different :(
Andrew Gilligan : And Blair was held to account, to some extent - he lost a very large number of votes over his appalling behaviour over the Iraq war and he has emerged from that as a much-weakened figure. So although he remains in office, his ability to get through some of the more controversial aspects of his administrative programme - the 90-day detention law - is much reduced.
Tara : There seems to be little press coverage, often tucked away, of this important issue. Why?
william : why is so little broadcast about this sort of thing? surely people want to know about these things why isn’t it in the media more?
Andrew Gilligan : The difficulty is, particularly for Britain, that these things that are hidden are secret and it's only the exceptional cases, like those we featured in the programme tonight, that ever emerge into the public domain. I cannot stress enough the importance of anyone who knows anything about these practices coming forward. It's only with exposure that this practice can be stopped.
gabe : Andrew, what incidents exactly caused you so much interest that you made the programme?
Megan : What then is the solution for the war on terror?
Andrew Gilligan : I was very interested in the fact that somebody could be quite literally snatched off the street of a western European city in the middle of the day, bundled into the back of a van, drugged and then flown straight off to a torture chamber. That was the Milan incident that we described in the film. This has really serious echoes of the Wild West, if it can happen to that guy it can happen in London.
Nick : It was indeed shocking
richard hutchings : would you say a war on terror is any more feasible then say a war on evil
Kevin : there is no war on terror - there is a modern American imperialism
Andrew Gilligan : Megan - we should stop calling it a war for one thing. You can't wage war on an abstraction and this isn't a problem that's solvable through military means because terrorists have no fixed assets which you can attack. Terrorism is an idea and the only way we can defeat it is intellectually and by causing those extremists to cast out those ideas. Terrorism thrives from repression. Terrorists can argue that we are no better than they are (falsely).
liquidswords : good answer.
Robert Daylight : Thank you, Sir
Isabelle : what else are you working on?
Andrew Gilligan : I'm still doing my main job with the Evening Standard as a columnist and I've got a few more projects which I'm talking to Channel 4 about.
Rmarni : thank you for your report Andrew, i'm happy to see that there are still people like you revealing the truth.
Andrew Gilligan : Thank you.
richard hutchings : thank you very much
Drverbeeg : Many thanks Andrew, keep fighting the great fight
PPatel : Thanks
james232 : Thanks!
Andrew Gilligan : Thank you all for watching the programme and for your kind words and being interested. The only way to stop this kind of thing is by making people more aware of it.
Lynne : Andrew, I watched your report and for the first time in my life felt like getting involved to express my disgust at the politicians who have allowed such abuse of international law and morality to occur in the false name of pursuing terrorists
BrianM : Thanks Andrew and thanks all.
edward : keep up the excellent journalism Andrew, thanks
Andrew Gilligan : Thanks and goodbye, I'm in Sri Lanka right now, so I shall have to sign off! Night all.
Andrew Gilligan leaves the room
