Chat Ed : Right - they're here! Give them a warm welcome...
Richard Belfield : Hello folks!
Dennis Woolf : Evening all!
bdavis : Evening
DarkAngel : hello
johnny66 : You said on the program that we consumed on average about a 1lb of beef every week. Can you tell me what would be the chance of this weekly pound being infected? And can you tell me the chance of a person being infected by consuming infected beef?
Dennis Woolf : I can't give a definitive answer, but there were some attack rate experiments done towards the end of the 90s, and they indicated that as little of 1g of the BSE agent could cause an infection... but obviously there's less of that in muscle meat, which we eat, and there's more of it in the brain - that's the continuum - although having said that there are also nerves in muscle meat.
Richard Belfield : I've got a website that has more information on it - http://sparc.airtime.co.uk/bse, the other point is that of the human victims so far, they all have the same gene, which is carried by about a third of the population. It doesn't appear to be dose-related, one hamburger could be enough.
Big Cow Eyes : Can BSE affect milk?
Richard Belfield : There's no evidence that it can, is there Dennis?
Dennis Woolf : That's what's been said. That's not something I know a great deal about, but it'll be on that sparc.airtime site. The Government have looked at it several times, and as far as we are aware, there isn't any evidence.
Derek and Clive : How do you test for the gene and why is this not a prevalent part of the governments public reports?
Dennis Woolf : Phew. It should be explained that this programme is based on the transcripts of the enquiry and the witness statements, and contemporary and confidential memos up to 96. Now, beyond that from my own personal knowledge or conclusions, then you take a DNA sample and you can check whether someone has got this gene, called a MetMet gene. And as far as the last part, Derek and Clive, I'm afraid you'll have to ask the government!
Richard Belfield : I suppose the cynical view is that there's no cure, there's not much that can be done anyway... those that are infected have got it.
Dennis Woolf : If there was a positive side, it would mean that if you didn't have the gene you could eat what you like!
Richard Belfield : It's all a bit late now anyway.
Dennis Woolf : The thing is - it's not totally impossible that if you didn't have the gene you could still carry the disease subclinically.
James Martin : Do you think the politicians will ever learn? Or are we the consumers and future voters probably always going to have to be worried about what we are eating?
Dennis Woolf : The answer in context is that another witness at the enquiry called Alistair Cruickshank, who was I think an under-secretary, in the Ministry of Agriculture, he's asked in the enquiry about his witness statement in which he said: 'It was the policy of successive governments not to ban or restrict the use of products in response to a supposed health risk unless there is EVIDENCE to support such action.' He continues to say that it had never been government policy to remove all possible risks to health. He's asked by the enquiry counsel about which governments he had in mind, and he said: 'All the ones I served under.' That goes back to the Labour government up to 1970, Labour from 74-79, and the Conservatives from 79 - 96. So that's what happened in the past. For the future, nothing at the moment seems to have changed.
Richard Belfield : Which is the point made at the end of the programme.
speedy33 : is there still likely to be any infected feed in use?
Dennis Woolf : I wouldn't have thought so. Unless there is a farm somewhere that has been keeping it. I don't know what's happening abroad. I believe that all SBO and cattle that are rendered are done so at specialised plants. Then it's just stored away, waiting to be disposed of.
bdavis : Very little was said in the documentary about farmers - could they have done more to stop the spread of BSE?
Dennis Woolf : I think most farmers were very concerned about not spreading BSE. One of the problems was that the feed that they received to feed cattle said it contained protein, but not that it was animal protein. So, they didn't know! They didn't know that they were feeding diseased sheep to their cattle. They wouldn't have done so if they had known. So as far as that's concerned, there were stories in the papers after the slaughter and a 50% compensation policy was introduced, that some farmers were still selling diseased cattle because the compensation wasn't 100%. But I have no evidence either way. Generally speaking, the farmers were not to blame. Some farmers - particularly organic farmers - believe that variant CJD in humans was not caused by eating beef, but by chemicals injected for veterinary reasons into stock. Richard and I might have different views on this.
Nick Fyson : All the talk about blame is important to prevent further problems of this type, but what about the implications of the BSE crisis? Do you think we are looking at 136,000 dead, the 'worst case scenario' or is a death toll much lower more likely?
Dennis Woolf : It will almost certainly not be as high as that - it being the Worst Case Scenario. The lowest I would say it could be is the current rate.
Richard Belfield : Currently it's one new or suspect case every 9 days. The rate is double this year what it was last year.
Burgerme : Do you think that public health should be kept in the hands of elected officials, or their faceless civil servants when they are generally more concerned with the short term effect on their own popularity rather than the long term safety of the public.Should there be a body set up outwith government specific control that can investigate and pronounce on the safety of foodstuffs and food related products...?
Dennis Woolf : That's something that the enquiry asked questions of as part of their task to look at the future. The problem is with scientists being increasingly funded from industry and private sources, how you would find scientists sufficiently independent to sit on such a committee? The government set up the Food Standards Agency, to serve such a purpose. But, with a few exceptions, that committee consists of similar people that have served on earlier committees organised by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Department Of Health.
vCJD : hi Dennis, hi Richard - is Dr Lacey the only scientist who has spoken publicly on BSE and not let himself be compromised by politicians or interest groups?
Richard Belfield : There are others, Stephen Dealler is one. He runs sparc.airtime.co.uk/bse
Dennis Woolf : Dr Helen Grant, who argued strongly in 1989 just after the Southwood Report was published... that the heads of all cattle should be banned. There are a number of other scientists who speak their mind... like Anne Maddocks...
Richard Belfield : By and large they have been in the minority!
Chat Ed : We've got time for two more...
WildPalm : did you experience much opposition during the making of programme?
Dennis Woolf : Only from the Channel 4 lawyer!
Richard Belfield laughs
Stian : What was the reason for that 'there is no evidence of..,' with GM foods at the end ? The major argument of the program was that damage was done when scientists had their words twisted. Then you do the same by suggesting that no evidence means something dodgy is going on. It's as bad as saying it means that something's safe. So why did you decide to use the same technique you were rightly chastising the government for doing?
Richard Belfield : The point we were trying to make was that whenever the government is presented with a major public health problem, they handle it in a very particular way. Our point was that this is a very stock response, and when they were confronted with BSE they said there's no evidence, for example, and now with GM foods, they're saying the same. I suppose our fear is that they have not learnt from history.
Dennis Woolf : It goes back to the quote from Alistair Cruickshank - That this has ALWAYS been government policy. Sorry we can't answer all your questions - but write to the Ministry and ask for answers!
Richard Belfield : Or write to us at; Fulcrum, 254 Goswell Road, London, EC1V 7RE and anything we can answer, we will do!
Chat Ed : Thanks very much Richard and Dennis!
stainless steel rat : Thank you
Rob Davies : thanks
Richard Belfield leaves the room
Dennis Woolf leaves the room
