Chat Ed : Welcome Professor Annette Karmiloff-Smith. She was the scientific consultant on this series, studied in Geneva with the famous Swiss psychologist, Jean Piaget, and is an award-winning author, broadcaster and world authority on infant and child development. She recently published, with her daughter, Kyra Karmiloff, a book on how children acquire language, called 'Pathways to Language: From foetus to adolescent', Harvard University Press, 2001 (for information: info@HUP-ITpress.co.uk), and also made a video especially adapted to stimulating infants and toddlers called 'Babybright-2' (for information: claire.flello@justgroup.com).

DF : Hello Annette!

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : This is Annette Karmiloff-Smith, I work at the Institute of Child Health and I was the consultant on the programme and I'm here to answer your questions.

DF : Annette, what do you think to Freud's theories of child development? Admitedly they are far removed from any of Piaget's theories... do you think they have any validity at all in the modern world of child psychology? November : How far would you agree with Freud's theory of childhood sexuality if at all?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : I think that Freud made us aware of repressed thoughts. The knowledge that children repress many of their thoughts - things like being angry at their parents, being jealous of a sibling - is important to realise. But in my view, Freud didn't make the kind of contribution that Piaget made, in understanding how the child's mind develops over time. Freud was more interested in emotion and Piaget in the growth of knowledge, which is what I am interested in. I was a student of Piaget's in Geneva.

Becky : What do you think affects the speed at which children move between stages of development?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : That's the 64 million dollar question! And an important and interesting question, too. One factor is obviously the way the brain develops.Brains develop in part through maturation and in part through interaction with both the social and physical environments, so movement from one level to another is a very dynamic process. It's not merely the environment, nor merely maturation of brain structures, but a complex interaction between the two and this is the focus of many studies of child development today. Children differ in their speed of processing which we can measure, in their capacity to form accurate representations and in their encounters with the world. All of these affect overall transition from one level to the next. Becky, one of the exciting developments is that we can now study *how* brains actually process the environment and we can do this with really young children throughout infancy, through childhood and adulthood. We look at how the electrical activity in the brain fires in response to different stimuli and how this activity progressively specialises in various areas of the brain over developmental time.

Notata Dignum : Why do you think Lev Vygotsky's ideas are currently so popular within the education system as a model of the teachers role in language acquisition?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : I'm not an expert in education, Notata, but I can see why Vygotsky's ideas make sense in the education field. Our research on infancy shows that infants respond to something that is SLIGHTLY different from what they know up to now, but not too different. Basically this continues throughout childhood, so Vygotsky's idea of zones of proximal development capitalises on this way of attracting children's attention and having them learn something new based on what they know already, but with a small relevant change. Also Vygotsky placed a far greater role on language than, say, Piaget did. But don't let's fall into the trap of thinking that language alone gives rise to learning. Children have to understand the concepts underlying the language being used. There is some nice research with toddlers showing that if you take 2 objects that don't look like each other, but give them the same name, the name won't help young toddlers learn. But, just a year later, they can use language (the same name applied to non-obvious resembling objects) to categorise new objects. So, clearly language plays an increasingly important role over developmental time. And inner language - planning actions in advance - always plays an increasing role.

tree : Have you done the same experiments on children in different countries/societies? Do you find the same results?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : A lot of research is unfortunately based soley on Western society, but there have been studies in other cultures. One of the problems is that we need to understand the culture itself before we can devise suitable experiments. You can't just take in your Westernised experimental set-up and impose it on another culture. They may have totally different expectations of the stimuli you present, different expectations of the interaction between an adult and a child, and so forth. You have to adapt properly to the culture in which you are carrying out your research. However, when that has been done, in many areas there is an amazing similarity across cultures in the way children start to learn language, to learn about number and space. However, by the time children are being educated and socialised in some way, subtle differences start to appear. So one might say that there are some cross-cultural universals and at the same time interesting cross-cultural differences. There are cultures for instance whose counting system is carried out on the body - it is very complex but different to ours. Yet if you look beyond the surface, you find surprising similarities in the learning process.

DF : Do you ever have problems finding children for your case studies? What do the parents make of your work?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : No, we don't have problems. Parents are usually very interested in research and willing to participate. I work with infants and children with genetic disorders. But we always need normally developing control children for our studies too. When they are very young, infants and toddlers come into our baby lab, and when they are older, we usually go out to their schools to do the testing. Because we make our experiments feel like games, often computer-presented, children love to participate. After the experiment we always debrief parents to tell them what we were trying to discover. My experience has been that both children and parents love to participate. We usually provide a nice certificate afterwards thanking the child for furthering our knowledge of science. Some parents frame them for their children's rooms.

ted : Pinker believes that only 5% (at most) of a child's personality is due to home life and parental contribution. Do you agree?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : I tend to disagree with quite a bit of what Pinker writes in his popular books. I think he is a brilliantly entertaining writer, but he is focussed on trying to show that our genes account for most outcomes - personality, emotions, language and so forth. If you get on to the Guardian Education website there is a summary of a talk that I gave this week at the British academy, which tells the story of gene expression in terms of a Sherlock Holmes detective story: Elementary, my dear Watson, the clue is in the genes...or is it? This talk highlights some of my differences of opinion with Pinker.

Josephine : what would you consider to be normal sibling rivalry behaviour for a two year old towards his newborn brother? Is hitting and pinching to be expected, albeit accompanied by extreme hugging and kissing? He has a genetic disorder which may or may not involve learning impairement and is currently referred for speech therapy. It's difficult to tell whether his outbursts towards the baby are related to this since he is otherwise full of affection for everyone around him....

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : Josephine, everyone should show some form of sibling rivalry. A child who is always too nice to the newborn intruder is a child one should perhaps worry about. Imagine if your husband came home and said, 'Josephine, this is Elizabeth, she is moving in with us, she's going to share our bed, I'm going to pamper to her every need'. How would you feel? That's how most 2 year olds feel when a newborn arrives! Of course, there is affection as well - in fact, a conflict between affection and rivalry. If the older sibling is rough, remove him or her firmly but calmly if there is any danger to the baby. Never make the older child feel guilty because his or her feelings are normal. But, let the baby cry a little while you cuddle the older child. I doubt that your son's reactions are only due to the genetic disorder, because you can see his behaviour is found in all normally developing children too. In a sense, he's telling you how much he loves you, and wants to be loved by you.

Chat Ed : Our half hour with Professor Annette Karmiloff-Smith is nearly up now, so last two questions now, thanks...

FD : Which side of the nature/nurture debate do you take?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : Neither side. The dichotomy between nature or nurture is a false one. Genes obviously play an important role in human development, but there is no direct mapping between genes and cognitive outcomes. What we really need to understand is the *dynamic interaction* between nature and nurture. In my view calculating, say, 40% nurture and 60% nature makes absolutely no sense. If we can one day understand the dynamic process of gene expression, the dichotomy between the two will actually disappear. We need to understand the dynamics of developmental trajectories.

Chat Ed : And lastly:
Jo Hammersley : I would like to become a clinical child psychologist. I have done a degree in psychology and am working as a teacher's assistant for kids with learning difficulties whilst applying for assistant posts. Do you have any suggestions/advice to help me achieve this goal?
Ellen : What qualifications do you need for child pyschology?

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : Jo, it's very competitive to get on to clinical courses. My experience has been that after a degree in psychology, your best bet is to work for one or two years in a clinical setting, for instance in a hospital, in a special needs clinic, etc. Above all try to get involved in some research. People on clinical panels are less impressed with statements like 'I want to help others' and would prefer to hear 'I want to have a deeper understanding of human behaviour and I have done research to find this out'. Don't be on a hurry to get on a course. Get some experience first. Talk to other students who have successfully got onto courses. That's how one of my students was successful, first by working for a year in research, then cross-questioning all the students who had managed to get on courses. Good luck with your future!

Chat Ed : For more information: Professor Annette Karmiloff-Smith recently published, with her daughter Kyra Karmiloff, a book on how children acquire language, called 'Pathways to Language: From foetus to adolescent', Harvard University Press, 2001 - email info@HUP-ITpress.co.uk for information, and also made a video especially adapted to stimulating infants and toddlers called 'Babybright-2' - email claire.flello@justgroup.com for more information. Chat Ed : That's it! Thanks for that Professor, great stuff! Thanks for joining us tonight everyone.
derekandclive : Cheers Annette. Cats are less work. :D
DF : Goodbye Annette, it's been nice discussing your work with you, we'd Love you back soon :)
felicity : byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
clo : *bye
Lara_C : bye!!!
J Afton : Thank You

Prof Karmiloff-Smith : Thank you all for your very interesting questions.

Josephine : Thanx bye
November : It's been interesting

Gracie : Thanks for answering my question........

Prof Karmiloff-Smith leaves the room